‘One should mistrust what appears self-evident’: Mineke Schipper, author of ‘Hills of Paradise’

Dutch author Mineke Schipper was in India recently for the IHC Samanvay 2023 festival in Delhi.

The internationally acclaimed author of Never Marry a Woman with Big Feet: Women in Proverbs from Around the World (Speaking Tiger, 2017) Mineke Schipper has wrestled with the ideas of origins for years.

Her unparalleled work on comparative literature mythologies, intercultural oral traditions, and proverbs is well known. She was in India recently for her talk titled ‘He Ate the Food and the Food Ate Him’: From Edible and Frightening Females to Human Solidarity at Delhi's India Habitat Centre’s festival of languages and literature, Samanvay 2023.

In an exclusive interview with Moneycontrol, she discusses a variety of things related to her latest book Hills of Paradise: Power, Powerlessness and the Female Body (Speaking Tiger, 2023), which is about “ambiguous feelings towards indispensable, coveted, reviled and envied female body parts.” Edited excerpts:

Could you tell us how you got interested in collecting proverbs?

I started my career as a teacher of French literature at the Université Libre du Congo. During my time there, I discovered description of Europeans in African novels. This became my PhD subject: how do African authors depict Europeans and the West in their novels. Apparently, both Africans and Europeans held similar stereotypes of each other.

In Congo, my students and I began collecting proverbs and stories from old storytellers. People have forever been wondering where we come from, and each culture has its own origin stories next to other genres we have in common such as proverbs. Though as human beings we seem to be inclined to see differences only, we share more than we are aware of. Thus, during my travels, I began asking people — taxi drivers, people in the market, etc. — about local proverbs. Besides that, colleagues from everywhere generously wrote me emails, sharing a variety of proverbs ranging from about the female body, mothers and daughters-in-law to female power, noting how things were and should be. Gradually, I created a database of thousands of proverbs: Women in Proverbs Worldwide, accessible to all as part of humanity’s legacy, for everyone to use and publish freely.

Did any of the origin stories you collected reveal something startling to you?

Most such stories are interested in how our lives should be as men and women; they’re not interested in the whole fluid between the extreme masculine and extreme feminine, as procreation is the major theme. However, ancient statuettes extracted from deep into the earth depict a very fertile woman — Mother Earth — with several birth channels, from which emanate multiple life forms: plants, animals, and humans. In a way, she’s kind of mother to all and doesn’t need men as she’s autonomously producing all lifeforms. But over a period of time, her life-giving role got reduced. One comparative religion specialist once noted Mother Earth’s career stepping up to the echelon of the Supreme Goddess level as she was blocked by the glass ceiling of her sacred marriage with the God of Heaven. Patriarchy got the upper hand so much so that while the heavenly god is referred to as He, goddesses, such as in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, have completely disappeared.

How deeply are proverbs and creation stories related to this increasingly accepted male-centric view of society?

The ancient statuettes emphasised women’s power as creators of life, giving birth to progeny of both sexes. It was too much! So, men tried to make up for this ‘unfair’ power imbalance by controlling women’s lives. Hence, fearful proverbial warnings like: ‘The name of the father is the secret of the mother.’ Or: ‘Mother’s baby, father’s, maybe.’

Noticeably, origin stories create hierarchy, for e.g., by having the first man being created with a material of superior quality than the first woman or the first man being created with the god’s right hand and the first woman with the left. In one story, God creates the first man and asks him to create his first wife himself, or god creates the first woman from the man’s big toe, foreskin, or a piece of the man’s thigh. In many ways, a hierarchical structure has been established thanks to the ongoing message that men are superior to women.

In Hills of Paradise, you share how concepts like Freud’s ‘penis envy’ were discussed a lot but not ‘womb envy.’ Then, you highlight celebrated and bestselling author Yuval Noah Harari’s blind spot. How do you think scholars can keep their discrimination and biases in check?

We’ve all been brainwashed by our past, so as scholars, we must be critical of ourselves. One should mistrust what appears self-evident. And proverbs have transformed themselves into a sort of guardians and keepers of power relations in society. They send out a warning against any power accumulated by women by belittling them. Having been put down for centuries, enormous insecurity has been ingrained in women. Naturally, they question themselves a lot: Can I do this? Can I go to university? As scholars, therefore, we must be careful to not leave any blind spot that perpetuates bias.

And do you feel the same perpetuates queer/transphobia, as transness signals possibilities or pluralities that disturb the power order?

I know a colleague who transitioned and faced discrimination from gender nonconforming people. I share this to say that everybody should be and feel as one wants to be and feel. No one category should impose its ideas on other groups. I dream of an extremely tolerant society with space for everyone. And I believe parents should inculcate equality while raising children. They need to do this to ensure a tolerant society.