Economics Nobel laureate Abhijit Banerjee: 'In India, the act of eating and not eating is extraordinarily potent and political'

Economist Abhijit Banerjee (left), and Cheyenne Olivier's illustration for the chapter titled the Trust and Trade in 'Chhaunk'. (Images courtesy Juggernaut)

Nobel laureate Abhijit Banerjee can draw out the economics in pretty much any life situation - including family dinners and table manners. Sample this section from his latest book, 'Chhaunk', a collection of essays at the intersection of food, economics and his own memories: "Energy-efficient cooking came up often in my childhood, for an entirely different reason. Foreign exchange was scarce in those days and Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC) had just boosted oil prices. Imported cooking gas was being rationed: when our assigned cylinder ran out of gas, the cook would put on a glum face, my mother would talk darkly about wasting gas and someone would run to the Indane store to apply for the next one, which could take several days." It was on days like this, Banerjee writes in 'Chhaunk' (2024), that the family would dip into its store of pickled and cured ingredients that required no cooking but acted as flavour bombs to spice-up the daal-chawal or one-pot meals that were more practical recipes for cooking over a kerosene stove. In the book, Banerjee follows up this memory with a recipe for Bhate Bhat made with rice, sweet potatoes, sem phali (flat beans) and eggs with the liquid from pickles drizzled over them and a chhaunk of steamed amaranth leaves with hing, mustard seeds, chillies, kadipatta, onions, and ground coconut. The recipe also calls for ginger, grapes, cilantro and tomatoes to pack in more flavour. Boiling is the main cooking technique at work here, with a steamer and massive metal container (to act as a double boiler) allowing the home cook to control the heat more efficiently. Chhaunk, or a tempering of aromatics, and pickling are in supporting roles in this recipe.

Banerjee, of course, is known for his work on "poor economics": ways to look at the choices people make below the poverty line, their outcomes and ways to think about reducing poverty that take these choices and outcomes into account. In 'Chhaunk', though, Banerjee, and his illustrator-collaborator Cheyenne Olivier, offer a different bill of fare. The table here is decidedly upper middle-class. And while this is not Banerjee and Olivier's first book on food, 'Chhaunk' focuses more keenly on the economics of food than their first book, 'Cooking to Save Your Life' (2021). In a virtual video interview to Moneycontrol from his offices at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Boston, Banerjee explained how his approach differs when he's writing a food book versus an economics paper. While calories and affordability are key in the latter, flavour is of primary concern in his food writing. The personal memories and experience, those could be the entry point into either. Read on for edited excerpts from the interview with Banerjee and Olivier:

Abhijit Banerjee, let me start by asking you: a second book on cooking - the world might have thought the first was a one-off, but clearly we are seeing a pattern here?

'Chhaunk' kind of evolved out of the previous book. The previous book was a recipe book, really, with a smattering of social science. And that I think made it clear that this is a good combination. This is a good space to be in. Social science should be more democratized, but it does not get democratized because we talk in these slightly academic terms and so I thought, by using a food column, we could do social science. Every essay (in the book) is social science very consciously; it is not (done) casually. There's data, there're references. There is really an attempt to be quite serious about the social science without making it kind of unpalatable or academic. So that combination we liked very much; that's where this book came out of. This is a book of social science with a food link, rather than a book primarily on food with a social science link. This is very much about India and the social sciences.

Dinner table conversations are such a great collective bonding, learning, listening opportunity. And if you don't take advantage of it, then you've lost something very valuable in life.

- 2019 Economics Nobel Prize winner Abhijit Banerjee

Abhijit: I just think it's terrible. Our children don't even dream of that, so thank god. But I think dinner table conversations are such a great collective bonding, learning, listening opportunity. And if you don't take advantage of it, then you've lost something very valuable in life. I can totally see why it can happen, because people are busy and maybe they just want to get through the meal and go back to something, but it is still such a missed opportunity. Maybe I sound extremely my age here, but I have no doubts that dinner table conversations are such a big part of how cultural capital gets transmitted.

This is a book about food and economics, but it has a bit about hunger strikes and the act of not eating as a form of protest both within the home and outside. How did this happen?

Abhijit: Well, you know in India the act of eating and not eating is extraordinarily potent and political. And that's why we have hunger strikes. Think of all the people who went on long hunger strikes, people who died in hunger strikes for causes. Maybe it is because we have such a long history of hunger and famines - this has been a one of the things we always contend with. I mean this has been written about... in north India in Buddha's time... So there have always been famines. So this consciousness of actually - you eat when you can. Not eating when you can, therefore, becomes very powerful.

And I think within families, not eating is a very much a political move. Women use it as a way to articulate their angst or their anger. I think any Indian will recognize that not eating when you can is very powerful. Then there we have all the days we have upavas, the days of fast when you eat specific things and not anything else, these are very much a way of expressing your cultural and political identity.

How do you place yourself within the cookbook tradition? Did you read a lot of cookbooks before writing these two cookbooks? Do you normally read a lot of cookbooks?

Abhijit: I read a lot of cookbooks. I own a lot of cookbooks. These days, I read a lot of recipes. And I like some specific writers, and I think for many of the others, there is a tendency to overwrite these days. You know, you have to read 10 pages to get to the recipe. There is just somehow there is a real art to writing cookbooks. And there are great cookbook writers and lazy cookbook writers who write everything down. And, yeah, I read a lot of them.

Abhijit Banerjee and an illustration (Breaking Roza Building Bonds) by Cheyenne Olivier in 'Chhaunk'.

Do you have any favourites?

Abhijit: I love Claudia Roden's books on the Mediterranean (cuisine). I like Marcella Hazan's books on Italian food, the dry tone kind of slightly dismissive of many things other people do; it is fun to read. I like Madhur Jaffrey's books for their nostalgia. She talks a very well nicely about her childhood and I always enjoy her writing. Yeah, there are many people, but those three for example.

When you were thinking about writing this book, were you thinking through anecdotes you might include first? Or were you thinking about the economics first and then select the experiences that would help to illustrate the concept?

Abhijit: Cheyenne and I discussed this and maybe Cheyenne can add to what I say: we have a long list of topics we want to hit and then when we discuss the topic - we always have a long conversation, several long conversations, before I write, because I try my ideas out a little bit. She (Cheyenne) is a very tough respondent. I'm not saying she is wrong, but she is not easily pleased. It's a good discipline to have, to someone who's very clear-headed (as a sounding board). I try my ideas out and indeed, as you point out, I have to think of what's a good anecdote, how do I connect it to a recipe - all those things along with what's the social science that I will highlight. There are, of course, tonnes of different things, and I want pick one or at most two, never more than that, ideas to highlight. So it is a nice length; we get to write, with the recipe, it can be about 1,800 words. And that's not tiny. It's a length where you can take some side dives of different kinds or make different points. As a writing challenge, it is a very nice one.

Cheyenne: I think each piece has three corners: one part is always linking back to one of Abhijit's memories or thoughts about India, his childhood or current reflection. Another part is pure economics or broad social science, because we also delve in anthropology, sociology. And the third part is food. We start from one of those angles. Sometimes Abhijit just comes up with a good memory or a good story that involves food. And then, out of that, we discuss a lot, and we try to see what could be the main economics topic of this column? And sometimes we have too much (for one column) so we decide to shed some and to leave some for another piece. Sometimes we forget about the food aspect in the process, so (we have to figure out) how we can think back to the food aspects. It really stems from any of those directions, and we try to merge it into something that has a nice rhythm. It's something that people read on a Sunday morning. So you can't put too much statistics. You also want to spark their curiosity. You want enough body for the piece for them to feel like they learnt something. But you also want some nice anecdote that is nicely healing. We do a lot of discussion on the content. I guess, it makes Abhijit read new material a lot of the time and then he has me reading it also. And then the process of doing the illustration; sometimes by refining what we want to do for the illustration, helps refining the piece. It's a very much like a ping-pong process.

The cover of 'Chhaunk', and illustrator Cheyenne Olivier (Cheyenne's photo by Sébastien Hubner)

Abhijit also credits you as the person who said that he needed to write his food book from the point of view of an economist because that is the special sauce that he brings to it. Could you respond to that, and to what he just said about you being a-difficult-to-please respondent? Did you shoot down a few ideas that he had?

Maybe I'm just not impressed enough by Abhijit by now (with familiarity, given that they go back a while). I'm just very, very frank in general.

I am not someone who is good at math. So, whenever there is too much math in it, I tell him.

As an illustrator, I am very much focused on the narrative. The piece has to flow nicely. Sometimes it might be that the point is nice to make or is true, but as a piece, as something to read (it's not great), so I always bring back that constraint (condition), which is that we need to narrow it down to a point, and if we have too much, it will just have to go into another piece.

Abhijit says I'm a failed economist. I should have done economics at some point instead of arts.

I also take seriously the first-reader responsibility. So sometimes I'm very critical just for the sake of being very critical. So that when we send it off, we have thought about all the different dimensions. And then obviously there are some topics, feminism being one, on which I have very strong personal views. In some sense, it helps me. A lot of the time, all of those questions are questions that I'm asking myself personally - not as a social scientist, but just as a person. It's a good way for me to think about this.

Abhijit, could you maybe give us an example of how you would write one of the chapters in the book as an economist versus a food writer - say, the one about energy-efficient cooking, where you recall the days when the wait for a new LPG cooking-gas cylinder could go into several days?

The key difference is that as a food writer you can't forget the excitement of eating, or the pleasure of eating, or the lack of pleasure of eating. For a food writer, that is front and center. For an economist, that sort of is third order. You know, (for an economist,) it has to be efficient, it has to be nutritious, and then it has to fit the budget. It has to fit the environmental conditions. It has to sustain the body. It has to make you able to work, to grow, those are all priorities. And then the pleasure comes last or not last, but after all these things. So I think that the big difference between economist and a food writer is that. Which is that we all recognize both sides of this. Of course, you don't want to be wasteful, and you don't want to be unhealthy and all that, but fundamentally, an economist's priority is: with the amount of money and time and energy you use, you want to generate something that is nutritious and nourishing and helps the growth of children. And a food writer fundamentally thinks of it being delicious and comforting and fulfilling in a very carnal sense. It's just very different.

Trust and Trade (Illustration by Cheyenne Olivier in Chhaunk)

You started writing food books during the pandemic. Five years on, has the pandemic changed the way that you look at food or economics in any lasting way?

Abhijit: The pandemic got us to write, and I think writing changed my understanding of food a lot. So this idea that we had recipes and now we could turn that into a book; I think the idea of writing about food just became much more tangible during the pandemic, and I have sort of got addicted to that.

Cheyenne: The discussions after the first book were very important in highlighting that. In the process of responding to the interviews and having to articulate what we tried to do in the first book, we realized we wanted to continue because we felt that there were so many more links to be made. Somehow taking this to a next step and that this is how the idea of doing first a food blog. But the monthly column is a good rhythm - you can narrow down to a topic and then change the next month. But at the same time, we have enough time to do something substantial.

Cheyenne, this is your second food book with Abhijit Banerjee. Your approach to the illustrations here is very different from what you did in 'Cooking to Save Your Life', where the art was a lot brighter, more colourful and the focus seemed to be on the ingredients rather than the eaters. In 'Chhaunk', the focus is more on the people, who are often depicted cooking or eating or sitting around a table. Could you talk us through the differences between the two books and how you approached them?

That's actually something we thought about very much at the beginning of the collaboration with ToI ('Chhaunk' began as a column in the national daily 'Times of India'). We felt that the more abstract tone (of 'Cooking To...') was not the one that would fit this particular column. We really wanted to address a wider range of readers, and we felt that the abstract ones (drawings) were nice, but also somehow a bit too intricate for a light Sunday column.

And also, I guess they (the columns) are very much about people, about India. I wanted to show more people and scenes from India. In order to do the illustrations, I kept asking Abhijit about why should this happen (in a particular scene or story) or who should be there, what kind of sari would they wear, what kind of accessory should I put in? So it was very much a collaborative process, just as the writing of the pieces is very collaborative. (The columns) are meant to be set in India. So I guess that's a very different strategy also than the previous cookbook, which was much more, somehow, international.

Unfair Imprisonments (Illustration by Cheyenne Olivier in Chhaunk/Juggernaut)

These illustrations are also closer to what you have done for 'Poor Economics for Kids' - it's the same design vocabulary?

Cheyenne: I guess with a very different urge. Because 'Poor Economics for Kids' is meant to be nicely published as a children's picture book, while the columns are printed on journal paper (newsprint). That's why the colours in the original columns are very bright. Now we really wanted to have a reading book (a book about food that has more than just recipes), so we removed the colours, but the original columns have colour. So I had to adjust to the quality of printing in a journal, which is a very different strategy.

And another big difference is that in 'Poor Economics for Kids', Esther (Duflo) had precisely asked me to not locate the stories in a particular place. So the cultural elements, the colours and the skin tones, etcetera, are somehow set in another world, while here in this book, unlike 'Cooking to Save Your Life', is very much set in India. So for example, we thought about the skin colour tones, we really wanted to represent the diversity of India, Indian people. That's something that was very specific to this set of illustrations. For me as a Western illustrator, the colour palette is not the same - so that was at the back of my mind.

I am very influenced by the Russian illustrators from 1917-25; a period in Russian illustration and Russian art were trying to change society by also changing the visual vocabulary. Many of those artists fled (Russia) to France, and they helped to renew the visual (arts) in France. So there is a particular aesthetic that we inherited in France in the children's picture book aesthetic. Those are the picture books I am very much inspired by... I am also very inspired by Franco-Belgian comics because I am half Belgian, so that is also what I grew up with. Those two influences are kind of merging together (in my work). On one hand, a clear geometry, primary colours, something quite bold in the composition, but also something quite lively.

In 'Poor Economics for Kids', there are elements that correlate to certain economic concepts, like the S-shaped curve representing the poverty trap. Are there similarly coded design elements in 'Chhaunk'?

Cheyenne: 'Poor Economics for Kids' was really an attempt to create a visual world of economics. Here, the point of the columns is that they are very much embedded in a scene. So, there are many more details that are referring to an ambience. Something that was very silent there was the interactions. That's what's at the core of this book: how cooking is enmeshed with how we act. A lot of the illustrations for those pieces are revolving around people cooking together, people eating together. I particularly worked on how the characters are interacting, the way they look at each other or the way their hands are handing some food over to someone. So, there is much more work on the poses, on the body, how the hands are placed, how they are refusing something or how they are inviting something.

In the book you talk about taking care of your dad and cooking for him. Can you talk us through what food means to you and in your family?

Cheyenne: That piece was very personal. Most of my family is vegetarian. My uncles have an organic store in Brussels. My sister is a pastry chef. We did a column on her partly. Food is a major topic (in my family). And interestingly, my dad went to India in the 1980s, and we used to eat a lot of dal-like dishes in my house. He used to make lentils a lot. I guess that's something that I remember.

Moreover, I guess that's what I learned with Abhijit. Living with Abhijit (Cheyenne was the family's au pair when Abhijit and Esther Duflo's children were younger) and I used to cook food a lot. I guess we (my family) cooked well for us, but we never had this thing of inviting many people over, doing large dinner. That is something that I was not used to, and I really discovered it in Boston. (Initially,) I didn't know what to do, but I'm happy I learned that because now that's something I very much enjoy doing. That was not part of my family, even though we were very happy to invite people, but we didn't have this influx of people coming.

Mangoes and Manners (Illustration by Cheyenne Olivier in Chhaunk)

What are you working on next, Cheyenne?

I am actually still working with Abhijit, but on a different (project). We are working on a textile project about Jamdani. It's about the economics of Jamdani weavers: the struggles they face, how they see their craft. This is about the economics of craft.

Was there a lot of research involved?

We made several trips. We are working with Suket Dhir, an Indian fashion designer and another friend of Abhijit's. For me what is particularly attractive is that Jamdani is very geometric in its essence. So, for me, it's a huge challenge to draw illustrations that are integrating the Jamdani aesthetic, but still taking it into my own designs, which is something I really like to do.

And you made several trips to India for this, is it?

Yes, yes, yes. We are now working intensively on that. So the next trip to India is partly to release the book and partly to continue working on this project.

Are you almost ready to release it?

Cheyenne: Oh no, no, we are not totally ready. But it is not going to be published. It is not going to be in the form of a book. It's something different.

So, it's an exhibition?

Cheyenne: Yes, something like that.

Abhijit: It's planned as an installation. The first scroll is being woven. Our guess is (it will take) two years from now at least.

Cheyenne: I am working on that, and I am doing a PhD in visual arts. (My PhD subject) is actually very related to poor economics for kids. It's about how do we illustrate poverty in children's picture books in France? So, trying to understand what are the visual choices we make when we want to represent poverty? How can we represent poverty better for young children?

Tell us about your favorite recipe or your favorite anecdote from the book.

Cheyenne: I think I like the dhoti one. The one with Abhijit's great-great grandfather (when a messenger asked him for a gift for bringing good news, he gave him the only article he had with him at the time: a dhoti that was all wet from his recent bath in the river; the chapter is about gift-giving and is followed by a recipe for sheera or suji halwa). Recipe: I think the carrot kibbeh (made with dalia, carrots, spinach or beetroot greens and ghee, among other things) is one I don't make enough. But as a vegetarian, it is a very good one. It is... very crunch friendly. It is impressive enough to have like a main dish. I think that's one of my favourites.

Abhijit: There is a savoury millefeuille made from south Indian-inspired baingan bharta with papad. We still are on that street trying to come up with new ways of presenting Indian flavours, Indian flavour ideas. It actually works very well (though) it looks kind of unlikely.

Any favourite anecdotes from the book?

Abhijit: I wrote briefly about the ongoing war between my mother and the local male population. For me (my favourite), it is very personal, but it was very big part of my upbringing; my mother's attempt to get them to not beat their wives and their girlfriends and their children. And so she was always fighting the local male population.