Full transcript: Amit Shah's interview to Network18 on PM Modi’s journey as reformer, taskmaster, world leader

Amit ji, thank you very much for giving this interview to Network18. I have interviewed you many times before, but this interview is a little different. Just two days ago, our Prime Minister — the people’s Prime Minister — celebrated his 75th birthday. So, I thought: who knows the Prime Minister better than you?

Amit Shah:

Of course, many people know him, it’s not just me.

Rahul Joshi:

But you’ve been associated with him for over four and a half decades.

Amit Shah:

Yes.

Rahul Joshi:

So, I felt this would be a good opportunity to talk a little about Modi with Shah. My first question is a natural one: when did you meet Modi for the first time? What was it that attracted you to him?

Amit Shah:

I met him at a Sangh meeting. The senior members of the Sangh had an interaction with the college student Swayamsevaks in Ahmedabad. To prepare for this, Modi ji had come to Narpur, where I used to live. Modi Ji explained why they should attend the meeting and the objectives of the Sangh to 10-15 young student Swayamsevaks. I heard about the Sangh’s work from him in a completely new way and for what purpose should one go to the program. He also gave the students concrete tips and guidance for the long term. It was remarkable — such detailed planning for a small town with just 1,200 young people.

I had also worked at the grassroots level, so I could appreciate the effort. This showed Narendra Bhai does everything wholeheartedly, and whatever he does is linked to the ultimate objective — that is why he achieves such great results. There were many young people in my area who were inspired by him and went to the program also. Many joined the Sangh, some joined Vidyarthi Parishad, some joined the BJP. Many went on to succeed in different fields. Connecting with people, connecting with work, and achieving the ultimate goal through these connections — finding a way to reach the objective — this left a deep impression on all of us. In the years to come, many examples of this approach could be seen in his life, shaping the Narendra Modi the world knows today.

Rahul Joshi:

You spoke about planning. Until 1995, the Bharatiya Janata Party had never formed a government with a full majority in Gujarat. After that, you kept winning elections together. What was Modi Ji’s role in this? How do you see his planning?

Amit Shah:

At that time, the Bharatiya Janata Party was in third place in Gujarat — after the Congress, and then the Janata Party (which had emerged from Congress). We were third, with just 11 MLAs. To rise from there and build such a strong government in Gujarat, and then to keep winning for so many years, was a very difficult task.

In Gujarat, when there was a continuous drought for two or three years, for the first time he made local city leaders take a Nyay Yatra (journey for justice) through the villages. The aim was to highlight issues of drought relief, corruption, and government apathy — the Congress was in power then.

Through that yatra, every co-operative member, every worker, went from house to house collecting dry rations, old shoes, chickpeas, and other essentials for those doing relief work. By making this a campaign, he expanded the party’s work, increased people’s faith in the organisation, and brought out the suppressed compassion of party workers for the people. The political effort turned into a genuine sensitivity to change people’s lives. Both these things — political purpose and public service — came together through the Nyay Yatra.

Secondly, I can’t speak for the whole country, but later, as the party president, I travelled across India, and there was a discussion about my organisational work in many states. I can confidently say that the work of institutionalising the booth committees was first done by Narendra Modi when he was the organisation secretary. For the first time, BJP members were systematically recorded booth-wise in handwritten registers — there were no computers then. Records were maintained, membership fees were tracked, and audits were done to verify authenticity. I remember travelling with him at that time. I handled accounts and audits.

By then, in about 80% of Gujarat’s districts, booth committees, mandal committees, and district committees had proper records. That is when the foundation of a structured organisation was laid. We could even discuss who had left the party, who had served for years, and why they left — everything was recorded and analysed.

Because of this, all the new young workers like us understood the organisation’s structure without much explanation. Building a party through a movement, and then embedding those who had grown within that movement into the party’s structure — these were two things that happened when Narendra Modi worked for the organisation. As a result, the Gujarat unit of the BJP acquired a very strong foundation.

Rahul Joshi:

It is natural that when the vision is so big, and the execution is equally strong, there must also have been tough taskmasters. So, tell us a story where…

Amit Shah:

You will find many such stories everywhere. Modi ji takes calculations and accountability very seriously; because of this, there is sometimes a sense of sternness. Whether it was when he became Chief Minister, when he became Prime Minister, or even when he was working for the organisation, he has always been strict. But I have never seen him scold or humiliate any worker out of personal animosity. Whenever he rebuked or corrected someone, it was always for a reason — awareness, discipline, or adherence to principles. I have seen his firmness on all three of these counts. Yes, if you want to analyse it broadly, you can say he has always been a very tough taskmaster.

Rahul Joshi:

You’re saying that you have worked with him the most. Tell us a little about how the influence of the RSS shaped him. He was an RSS pracharak (campaigner). How did the RSS’s thinking shape him? You were also a pracharak.

Amit Shah:

I was not a pracharak; I was a member of the Sangh. But whoever comes into contact with the RSS, with its organisation, cannot remain untouched by its impact. Today, Narendra Modi is known as a leader for whom the country comes first, then the party, and only after that the party’s workers. This approach comes from the values and discipline instilled by the RSS over its long history — what I call its sanskars. Under the discipline of the organisation, these values become second nature. Once these sanskars become part of your nature, you live according to them effortlessly. When discipline becomes ingrained in one’s character, work naturally follows the same path.

Rahul Joshi:

Amit ji, many people say that you and Modi ji are two sides of the same coin. So, tell us the secret behind this dynamic.

Amit Shah:

It isn’t right to say that only Modi ji and I are two sides of the same coin. Modi ji and the party’s workers — they are truly two sides of the same coin. In the lives of millions of workers, he has shown the right path. If someone strays, he points them back in the right direction. He has elevated the lives of many people and ensured that every worker lives by the party’s principles — because he himself is, at heart, a worker.

Even after becoming Prime Minister, in this country’s 80-year democratic tradition, perhaps there has never been another Prime Minister who participates in party meetings with such a dedication. Take, for example, the party’s three-day training programmes. He attends every session with complete focus, sits through the entire event, remains attentive, and even takes the microphone from time to time. Because of this, the morale and presence of the workers increase. When the leader himself sits through the sessions, everyone else is motivated to remain present and engaged.

Rahul Joshi:

Modi ji builds genuine, heart-to-heart connections with people. I have seen him maintain one-on-one relationships with major global leaders — whether it is Trump, Netanyahu, or Putin. Even if a friend is upset, he makes efforts to console and reconnect. This quality is extraordinary.

Amit Shah:

When a leader works solely for his goal and his country, there is no rigid protocol. To achieve his goal and lift the nation, everything flows naturally. There’s no complex science behind it: when you set aside your ego, everything becomes effortless. I have seen him interact with the smallest officials — encouraging them, scolding them when needed, and same with senior workers, because the objective is to strengthen the party, the state, and the country.

He builds personal relationships on a global level, but those relationships have always been in the interest of India. I don’t want to generalise, but I know of many instances where India benefited immensely from his personal relationship on a global level, almost same level of benefit from diplomacy during these decades of freedom. Some remarkable decisions were taken that went beyond standard foreign policy but were always made in the national interest. That is a truly great achievement.

Rahul Joshi:

The victory of the BJP in 2014, Modi becoming the Prime Minister, was a historic victory in itself. I would like to ask you this question through you. You had a big responsibility in that election. You had to deliver Uttar Pradesh for the BJP. How did you do this at that time? And how did Modi ji guide you?

Amit Shah:

Look, the whole country was full of anger and resentment against the Congress. And because of Modi Ji’s 12-year tenure as Chief Minister, the “Gujarat Model” attracted the attention of the entire nation. The shortcomings visible in the Congress administration found an answer in Modi ji’s qualities. So, there was huge public support for Narendra Modi.

In Uttar Pradesh, it was my responsibility to reform the organisation, to convert his popularity into votes, and to ensure those votes went into the ballot box. We also had to help people rise above casteism and to instil in them a voting pattern focused on the country’s interest. I believe the Bharatiya Janata Party succeeded in doing this in Uttar Pradesh. We created the belief that Modi ji could transform the country — and that if the country had to change, then Uttar Pradesh must change first. And only Modi ji could change Uttar Pradesh. We built this belief carefully.

Of course, there were many organisational repairs to be done. There were so many things. But the key factor was Modi Ji’s popularity. We had to build a mechanism to channel the hope people had in him. I think we managed to do this effectively — and that’s why we achieved such a remarkable result.

Rahul Joshi:

On one hand, Modi ji is such a popular leader and enjoys excellent cooperation with global leaders. Yet opposition leaders like Rahul Gandhi and Mamata Banerjee keep criticising and humiliating him. Some even call him a “dealer of death.” How do you see this?

Amit Shah:

It is unfortunate that, instead of engaging on political principles, they resort to personal attacks. The kind of language being used in politics these days, I don’t think it helps strengthen our democratic system. In a democracy, politics without limits is like termites eating away at its roots. Through your programme, I would like to appeal to the people of the country: those who indulge in this kind of language and politics should be punished by the electorate.

If a person’s behaviour is corrupt, that is not a personal matter — it is public. Exposing corruption is the opposition’s responsibility. But when no corruption is found, they resort to baseless words, to indecent remarks — even insulting Modi ji’s late mother. This does nothing to improve our democracy. I appeal to the people: such behaviour should be punished at the ballot box.

Parliament is the highest panchayat of the nation. Both the government and the opposition must discuss the country’s issues according to their own principles. There is no better platform for debate. Yet, from the very first day, some try to disrupt Parliament — and keep doing so. Then they claim they are not allowed to speak. Even when the Speaker gives them time, they stage walkouts, or waste their allotted time in political sloganeering instead of addressing issues. Parliament cannot run in a freestyle manner. Rules for running Parliament have existed since the time of Rahul ji’s great-grandfather and grandmother. Only by following these rules can Parliament function. An ideal Parliament is one where debates take place within the framework of these rules.

Anyway, such things don’t affect me personally. But I do want to remind people that Modi ji has strengthened our multi-party parliamentary democracy and has always insisted on maintaining discipline in Parliament. Ultimately, the people must decide whether parliamentary time should be wasted in political games or devoted to meaningful discussions — about national security, development, employment, industrial policy, cooperative reforms, or welfare for millions of poor citizens.

I’m surprised because I, too, was in the opposition for ten years. At that time, we would protest for a day or two to highlight issues, then engage in discussion. If the government still didn’t agree, we went to court to investigate corruption — and many times, the courts directed to conduct inquiries. But today, they don’t want to debate in any constitutional forum; they prefer to agitate on the streets. That is why, I believe, the people have kept them out of power.

Rahul Joshi:

Amit ji, your government of 11 years has many achievements. But I’d like to focus on a few key things; otherwise, it will take too much time. Let’s talk about Article 370. How was its removal made possible? What role did Modi ji — and you — play in this?

Amit Shah:

The whole world knows how it happened. From the beginning, our party had opposed Article 370. The first president of the Bharatiya Jana Sangh, Shyama Prasad Mukherjee, dedicated his life to ending it. But until now, there had been neither enough strength within the BJP nor the resolve to take such a bold decision. When Modi ji became Prime Minister for the second time with a two-thirds majority, he moved swiftly and removed Article 370 in the very first session. I believe that, in Modi ji’s 11 years, this step has been one of the most important — to safeguard the nation, curb terrorism, and send a clear message across the world that Kashmir is an integral part of India. For centuries, people will remember this decision.

Rahul Joshi:

There have been many other reforms, but I want to focus on economic reforms under Modi ji. Recently, GST 2 was rationalised, income tax was reduced, and corporate tax rates were cut. What was Modi ji’s vision behind these reforms?

Amit Shah:

I’ll speak about the recent GST reforms later. GST itself was originally discussed during the Congress government — when Mr. Chidambaram and Mr. Pranab Mukherjee were finance ministers. The Congress often claims that GST was their idea. If so, why didn’t they implement it? They were saying that the states were opposing it. The question is why the states were opposing it. The people of the country should understand what it was against. Everyone knew that GST would result in a reduction in state resources. To bridge that gap, the states asked for a revenue guarantee. The Congress didn’t agree, and the states didn’t agree either — so reforms of GST did not happen.

When Narendra Modi became Prime Minister, he provided that guarantee, promising constitutionally that states’ revenue growth would almost double. He fulfilled that promise, assuring all states they would receive funds by November. With that guarantee of the central government, the states agreed — and GST was finally implemented.

GST consolidated 16 different types of levies — from octroi to excise duty, sales tax, entertainment tax, and others. A nationwide electronic billing system was introduced, along with the e-Way bill. Over the years, more than 200 incremental changes made GST simpler and more business-friendly. Initial teething troubles were resolved, and the country’s revenue grew — from ₹80,000 crore to over ₹2 lakh crore.

The trust of states, people and businessman increased. More than 395 items have seen tax reductions — by 0% or 5% — while sectors vital for exports, employment, agriculture, and healthcare were given relief through a scientific GST structure. Food items, essential medicines, products for farmers, women’s necessities, and health insurance were all taxed at reasonable or zero rates. Even vehicles — now essential for many, whether two-wheelers or four-wheelers — were rationalised. This was an unprecedented tax reduction in 80 years. Many things will benefit from this GST reform. I believe that this is a very big step. And the trust of the people has increased, that If we increase the government's net by filling taxes, the government will reduce the tax and benefit the people. And this trust has never been seen before since independence. For the first time, it has been seen.

The underlying belief was: if the government expands the tax base and earns people’s trust, tax rates can be reduced. This also increases income.

Rahul Joshi:

Will the investment increase?

Amit Shah:

Yes, the investment will increase. There will be a boost in the market and people will get cheaper due to tax cuts. The speed of the production will increase. And the development of the country will also increase. This is a multi-dimensional, multi- I mean, this reform will benefit every sector. This reform will be considered a major reform.

Rahul Joshi:

You people have had to go through tough situations in the last 11 years. You have had to take tough decisions, like, Air strike in Balakot, recently Operation Sindoor. So, what message is Modi Ji sending to the world?

Amit Shah:

I will speak about Balakot and Operation Sindoor later. The most difficult situation of my life — in which I believe India, under the leadership of Mr. Modi, achieved the greatest success in the world — was the era of the coronavirus.  Today, everyone around the world acknowledges that India’s management of the coronavirus was among the best. When we analyze the reasons for this, we see that in many countries it was only the government that fought against the pandemic. In India, however, the central government, the state governments, and the people worked together to fight COVID-19.

And to create this spirit, Mr. Modi endured many insults, much criticism, and even taunts. Some said, ‘Beating thalis won’t stop Corona.’ Others mocked, ‘Lighting lamps won’t defeat the virus.’ Some questioned, ‘What will you achieve by putting the public under curfew?’ Yet all these efforts inspired every citizen of the country, giving them the morale to fight COVID-19. They strengthened the spirit of collective struggle. And then, from assembling a team to develop vaccines, to encouraging them at every stage, India succeeded — in collaboration with the world — in producing its own vaccines.

And the most remarkable achievement was using technology to vaccinate 1.4 billion people and deliver proof of vaccination to each one — a truly extraordinary feat. When the second wave of COVID struck, I know how suddenly a shortage of oxygen arose across the country. Consumption had risen to nearly four times the usual level. From every corner of the world we sought oxygen cylinders and supplies, brought them here, and delivered them to the people — all without interruption. The public witnessed this effort, they praised it, and the entire world acknowledged it.

There could not have been a tougher challenge than this — bringing together a coalition government, uniting every level from Parliament to the panchayat, and rallying 1.4 billion people to fight this battle. I believe it is a remarkable achievement, and Modi ji is the true architect of it all.

As far as the Uri, Pulwama, and Pahalgam attacks were concerned — whether it was the surgical strikes, the air strikes, Operation Sindoor, or later Operation Mahadev — this reflects the BJP’s firm commitment that our government maintains zero tolerance toward terrorism. Under Modi Ji’s leadership, this is not just a slogan; it is a clear and consistent policy. And whenever the time demanded it, we worked with determination to uphold this policy.

There had been attacks before — major ones. There was the attack on Mumbai; there were many others, a series of bomb blasts across cities. But we never responded. Yet we never halted the country’s development by plunging into a full-scale war. Instead, each time, by giving a firm and measured response, we sent a clear message: no one can violate India’s borders, challenge India’s army, or threaten the people of India without facing consequences.

In Operation Sindoor, the way their headquarters were struck — even inside Pakistan’s territory — astonished the entire world. And such an operation would not have been possible without the strong will of the leadership.

Rahul Joshi:

Amit ji, you have a deep interest in history. My question is: if we look at India’s longest-serving Prime Ministers — Nehru ji, Indira ji, and Modi ji — how would you compare Modi ji with Nehru and Indira ji? How do you view that comparison?

Amit Shah:

Look, each of them did good work in their own time, and each tried to serve the country in their own way. But Modi ji has transformed the very size and scale of India’s economy. He has also changed the political narrative of poverty alleviation at the grassroots level. It’s a huge achievement that 250 million people have been lifted out of poverty in this country. In the lives of 600 million people, providing housing, toilets, gas cylinders in their homes, electricity, five kilos of free grain for every individual, ₹5 lakh for medical treatment, and clean drinking water at home — in just 11 years, to raise the standard of living for 600 million people in this way, transforming lives that had awaited change for generations, is in my view a remarkable achievement.

Alongside this, modernizing the nation’s armed forces, strengthening India’s security, realizing the vision of Make in India, and elevating the economy from 11th to 4th place — and, above all, instilling confidence in 1.4 billion citizens that by 2047 India will stand at the very forefront of the world — this, too, is an extraordinary accomplishment. History will judge, but I believe no Prime Minister in India has accomplished so much in just a decade. Many things remain unmentioned in my speech. In every domain — whether it is education policy, foreign policy, or strengthening the backbone of the country — Modi ji has elevated the pride of every Indian citizen.

Rahul Joshi:

Does he remind you of any other leader or great personality?

Amit Shah:

It is not right to make such comparisons. Every leader grows in their own era and has their own style of working. But in terms of achievements, Modi ji has accomplished the most in his time.

Rahul Joshi:

Amit ji, you have spoken at length about Modi ji. Finally, I would like to remind you of what Modi ji recently said about you.

Amit Shah:

No, don’t say anything like that. This interview has a specific purpose: to remind the people of the country about what Modi ji has done for them in 11 years and how he is working toward building a great India. That is what this conversation is meant to convey.

Rahul Joshi:

We have also published a coffee table book. Thank you for sharing it with us and for connecting with us today.

Amit Shah:

Namaskar.