When the 1965 Indo-Pak war interrupted classes at IIT Kharagpur, and more war stories

In an interview to Moneycontrol, Gen. Cardozo spoke about the 1965 war, why he writes about the Indian Armed Forces, how he feels about the turmoil today in Bangladesh - a country that he helped to free from West Pakistan in 1971, and his memory of Independence Day 1947 in Mumbai when he was 10 and the streets were lit up in the grandest of celebrations. Edited excerpts:

Major General Ian Cardozo, you've fought in the wars in 1962, 1965 and 1971. Tell us when and why did you join the Army - this was still the early 1950s, India was still a very young independent nation. What made you want to join the Army then, and what was the mood in the Army at that time?

Well, I was in college, a very good college, St. Xavier's College, which is one of the most prestigious colleges in India. But I felt, rightly or wrongly, that in whatever profession I chose after getting qualified, I'd be going to the same office every day, seeing the same people, going and doing the same thing. And I thought, well, the army offers a life of adventure. It takes me to places and I can also do something for my country.

At that time, it was just about six years after we got independence and I'd seen the way we were treated by the British, and India was on the move. And the Army, I saw a cadet who was with me in Saint Xavier's school who came back from the NDA. He was a changed person. He was polished, he was strong, he was capable. He carried himself so well. And I thought, well, that's the place for me. So that's when I left college and I joined the NDA and there was no looking back after that.

(Image courtesy Major General Ian Cardozo [Retd])And when you joined, this is 1954, was there a sense that maybe we could go to war with Pakistan or we could go to war with China?

No, there was no such thing at that time in the country, there was no such thought about war. 1954, '55, '56, '57, I passed out of the NDA in 1957, then went to the Indian Military Academy at Dehradun in 1958 and then the trouble started with China a year after I joined - in 1959 (things escalated after an Indian national was arrested at Longju which is along the McMahon Line) - and we were moved to the border.

But at that time, we still didn't know. I was too young. I was a second lieutenant; I had no idea what war was all about, but it was an adventure. We had to move in a special train all the way from Ambala to the Northeast Frontier Agency. From there we had to move by road. From there we had to move to the border. It took 18 days' march from the nearest airfield to reach the border post.

It (the fighting in this part of the Northeast) was as though we had moved 1,000 years back in history because we were interacting with warlike tribes who were fighting with each other with swords and bows and arrows, spears, daggers, helmets, shields. There was a case where we heard that an officer had been killed by these tribes because we took for granted that they are Indian citizens, so they are OK, but they were wild tribes. So we had to be very careful. So we had the Chinese in front of us on the border and we had tribes behind us who we had to be careful about.

Every day was an adventure because we were supplied by air and the dropping zones were about 4,000 feet below us. The planes were circling down on the dropping zone 4,000 feet below.

While we were there, the Dalai Lama came across with all his entourage. And only then we felt that, well, China is up to (something); they've taken over Tibet and we didn't understand at that time... So there was no real thought about war at that time, in 1959.

But we had had a home minister like Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel who...told the Prime Minister that...China is not a friend, it is more of an enemy and he listed out all that they had done. Unfortunately, he'd passed away in December 1950. So Prime Minister Nehru had nobody to oppose him and he carried on with the policy of appeasement to China.

(Image courtesy Major General Ian Cardozo [Retd])I want to talk a lot more about the 1965 war, but I'm going to jump forward to 1971, which you've talked about in a previous book. Now, with the unrest in Bangladesh, do you look back at the war that you fought in 1971? It was during this war that you had to amputate your leg...

I don't see the point in looking back, in the sense that we did what we did, we fought for the right cause, we fought for the rights of the East Pakistanis to get independence, we liberated East Pakistan, Bangladesh was formed, and we could not have done that without the help of the Mukti Bahini as well as the people of East Pakistan. You cannot conquer a country unless the people are with you. And our cause was just. A great number of battles were fought all over, but in military history, this is the shortest war - we won in 13 days. We liberated the people, and a new country was born. We were elated that we managed to do what we were supposed to do.

The world changes, the world goes on. Things will change, but I'm full of optimism... there will be problems, but we'll be able to overcome them.

(Image courtesy Major General Ian Cardozo [Retd])In 1971, you also suffered a personal loss. Your leg had to be amputated during the Battle of Sylhet. That also became the moment where you also turned into a writer and a chronicler of Army history. Can you tell us about why you write about these battles that happened so long ago?

The man in the street needs to know; he and his family have a stake in the security of India. Their voices must be heard, but their voices must be also logical and knowledgeable. Therefore, they need to know about how the military functions and what it does to keep them safe. But who reads military history? Military history is not everybody's cup of tea. So I felt that I should rewrite military history in the form of short stories.

We (also) make mistakes: To say that the Army is a holy cow and that everybody is a saint is not correct. The Army is made-up of people from the length and breadth of the country. We have all sorts of people, and we have all sorts of thoughts, all sorts of strategies and tactics. Maybe we made some mistakes, maybe we could have done better, but we need to learn from those mistakes. In the army, there's a saying that the best soldier learns from the mistakes of others; the good soldier learns from his own mistakes; and the bad soldier never learns. So we need to be in the image of the best soldier and learn from what is happening in Ukraine, what is happening in Gaza, what is happening in Hamas with Israel, what happened in '62, what happened in '48-'49, what happened in '65, what happened in '71, what happened in 1999. And make sure we don't make those mistakes again. I'm full of hope that we will deliver whatever, whatever happens, because the Army is very resilient. It has got high values, it is based on honour, it is based on love.

And the man in the street also needs to know more about the military so that he also joins. He has a stake in the security of India, his children have a stake in the security of India and they must form part of our Army, Navy and Air Force. And for that they need to be told about what happened in these wars, what we did. We have brilliant stories of courage and bravery and honour and truth and love, sacrifice, which will motivate, inspire the younger generation to do what is necessary, not only in the Armed Forces, but in whatever profession they choose. They need to always put the country first. As long as you put country first, we will be the best country in the world. I didn't say the most powerful country in the world. I didn't say the richest country in the world. I said the best country in the world. And the best country means that everybody will be happy, they will be empowered, they will be content, and they will be proud of India.

So that is what that's why I write.

(Image courtesy Major General Ian Cardozo [Retd])We are talking exactly 59 years to the day since the 1965 war came to IIT Kharagpur, at around 10:25 am, and the professors and students had to come out to see what was happening.

Yeah, you see, when we fight the war. we fight jointly: Army, Navy, Air Force. So in my stories about the 1971 war, there's the Army, Navy, Air Force but '65 has only Army and Air Force. Why? Because the Navy was kept out of the war. Very few know that Indonesia at that time was claiming that the Indian Ocean should be called the Indonesian Ocean, and the Andaman and Nicobar Islands should be part of Indonesia, and we would make an attempt to capture some parts of the Nicobar Islands. So the Indian Navy was diverted to the Bay of Bengal when the India-Pakistan war broke out over the air and on the ground.

So in 1965, the Navy were kept out of the war but the Air Force had a chance to show off a little bit and some of it happened with a great audience by the IIT Kharagpur students and professors.

Yeah, it was a great battle fought over the IIT campus. The professors were trying to keep the attention of their students, but there was a lot of noise outside. The windows were rattling and the students were getting sort of disoriented and disturbed. It was 5 minutes to break tea break, so they it was around 10:25. The classes were closed and they, all the professors and the students, steamed out and they were astonished to find a battle going on above the heads and above the IIT campus.

There were two Hunters versus 4 Saber jets. And it was a great battle because one pilot, a Flight Lieutenant Alfred Cook, he destroyed one Sabre jet, he destroyed another, but unfortunately it sort of fell inside East Pakistan, so he didn't get credit for it at that time. And when he got behind the third one, he pressed the button of his trigger, but he had run out of ammunition. But he hit all four: One was knocked out by his wing man, one destroyed, one claimed destroyed which was seen falling into East Pakistan, and one got away.

You write in your book that they were flying so low that the gun camera caught trees and foliage.

You know in the Armed Forces, you had sergeants in the Air Force who were in charge of discipline. And although Alfred Cooke was an officer, the sergeant said: 'Sir, you have gone very low. I would have to report you to the commanding officer. You've done something which is not allowed - to come so low that his wings were full of parts of trees and bushes. But it was a fantastic fight. And that's the first story of the book on the '65 war.

Gorkha Rifles (Image courtesy Major General Ian Cardozo [Retd])You have an excellent memory for dates and names. Tell us how you've managed this at 87 years.

I'm 87 now but I learnt something from my son when he was eight years old. He said, 'Dad, I want to write my book of dreams', and so I encouraged him to do that. And I thought, let me take a lesson from my own son; let me keep a diary of important events that happened. Not that I kept it very properly, but also I've been thinking of these stories all these years. If it took me 18 months to two years to write the book, I've been thinking of these stories all the years. And now that they're in the book, they've left me now, and they've gone into history, those stories, right?

Do you remember the day that India got independence? And the months leading up to it, including the partition? You were in Bombay at the time?

Well, I was just 10 years old, and I was very excited. Everyone was on the street shouting. I don't know whether we realised what independent meant; maybe they did, but I didn't understand what it meant. Except that I knew that now in my dad's office I could use the staircase meant only for the whites. You could use toilets meant only for the whites. Discrimination was over. Schools which are meant only for the whites, were now open to everyone. So that bit of discrimination I understood, but I was fascinated by the trams and the buses all lit up with bulbs, going up and down the streets and everybody shouting Jai Hind, independence mubarak and the ships in the harbour firing rockets and it was a very joyous time.

What happened subsequently in J&K and Partition was very far away from us and I didn't really know what was happening. I was too young to understand what was happening in J&K and what was happening in Partition. Those horrors were (experienced by) my classmates and course mates who came to us in the NDA and told us all about them. But in Bombay we were far away from Partition.