Full transcript: Piyush Goyal's exclusive interview at Green Bharat Summit

And any visitor to Bharat Mobility will really feel proud of India's achievements. We have made a mark for the nation across the world with an ecosystem of automobiles that could be the envy of the entire world. In electric mobility, while we do have a challenge on the raw material, critical materials required for battery, and possibly also some challenges around the technology for cell manufacturing, I think by and large, it's a very easy-to-make vehicle.

Electric vehicles don't need a very complicated ICE engine. The rest of the shell and everything is almost the same. So it's one ecosystem where we can very surely and certainly be Atmanirbhar, and have a robust India element to it. And look at the success stories of Tata or Mahindra or Ola Electric, for that matter. I'm very certain that given the rapid increase in adopting electric mobility that we are seeing in India, now even in commercial vehicles like buses and trucks, very soon the entire value chain will be in India. Our auto component industry, led by the Automobile Component Manufacturers Association, ACMA, has had several engagements with me and are very, very committed to meet all the requirements of the electric vehicles that we have.

And sorry, I don't think it needs subsidies. I'm one of those, and I hope all the youngsters who are watching this program or in this room will clearly take back a message, move out of the subsidy mindset. Subsidies or these clutches are okay for a short period, like a kickstart of a scooter. Remember the old days we had the scooter where you kickstarted it just to give it that initial thrust? A subsidy can only and only play that role. Any industry which expects to remain subsidized, subsidy-driven, or protected from competition beyond the initial few years, can never be successful. We have to stand on our own feet, we have to build our competitive edge, so that we can look at the long-term success story in our industry.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: In fact, one of the things that you did when you pushed for LED lighting was that you removed the subsidies.

Piyush Goyal: That's right. And that's why it was successful. To set it in context, there was a subsidy of 9 crore rupees annually given to help support the LED lighting systems. And government used to give 100 rupees per bulb. So 6 crores, that means 6 lakh bulbs, were getting 100 rupees a bulb from the government. 3 crores was spent on administration expenses, because we had to administer the scheme across the country. And you can imagine the whole country, 120 crore people in 2014, when I started thinking about this, everybody was waiting for their turn to get that 100 rupees subsidy before they replaced their lights with LED lights. And it was such a stupid thing that instead of 120 crore people giving economies of scale and large-scale demand for that product, making it much more affordable, and giving a payback of less than 6 or 7 months, we were waiting for a future subsidy.

Because of that, the total sale was minuscule, therefore there was no Indian manufacturing. Imported products were sold at a very high price, and the whole LED lighting was a pipe dream. The first file I signed on that program was to eliminate that subsidy, much against the wishes of the bureaucrats, though. Everybody thought that that's counterproductive, and it's, you know, what a message it'll give that you're withdrawing subsidy. But I believe that was the beginning and the most important element of our project, to take LED lighting through the length and breadth of India. Today, you can all be very, very proud that your country, your motherland, is the world's fastest adopter of LED lighting in the world.

Prime Minister Narendra Modi gave it a real thrust that we have to succeed. And in the whole world, we are recognized for having adopted LED lighting faster than any other country, even one-tenth our size. And I remember the estimate at that time was consumers will save 40,000 crores annually in their electricity bill. I suspect if we were to juxtapose it to today, when you can't get that old Edison bulb or anything in the stores anymore, we would be saving a lakh of crores today, annually.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: So I guess the point you're making is that EVs, whether in two-wheelers or three-wheelers or cars, should become economically viable, should be economically attractive on its own merits, not driven because of subsidy. That's the moral point.

Piyush Goyal: No, we have supported it through a variety of subsidy schemes, FAME 1, FAME 2, PM eDrive, now the PLI scheme for automotive industry of 26,000 crores. We have the cell, advanced chemistry cell manufacturing support for 50 gigawatt hour worth, I think, 18,000 crores. So we've had a significant amount of kick-starting the ecosystem. But let's not make that permanent. Let's make the industry self-reliant and stand on its own feet.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: So are you satisfied with the response of the industry to the PLI schemes for battery manufacturing and so on?

Piyush Goyal: I think there's been very good response. These are new areas, not any and everybody can do it. But I believe that the response has been good. The adoption and absorption of new technologies has been quite fast. And I'm very confident that in the days to come, literally, the way things are going, the two-wheeler industry, two- and three-wheeler will certainly get moving to 100% electric phase. At today's prices, frankly, even buses, trucks, passenger vehicles, all of them are economically viable to buy electric, particularly since the operating cost becomes almost zero.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Now I know it's strictly not your area, but can the government mandate buying e-buses only or cars which are EVs, at least the central government, if not state governments?

Piyush Goyal: I'm of the view that government should not be mandating anything. We should allow economics to prevail and the market forces to find their own level. When government mandates anything, there's always a natural reaction and opposition to it. My own sense is that it's a compulsive economic case to move to electric vehicle. And when you look at the capital costs of purchase or leasing a car and the operating costs where both electricity is much cheaper to recharge your battery and repairs and maintenance are almost non-existent in an electric engine, I think it's a no-brainer that the country will move towards electric very fast.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: So one thing I wanted to, especially, you know, America has increased the tariffs on EVs from China, EV exports to China, to more than 60%. Europe has also imposed high tariffs on EV exports from China. What kind of an opportunity do you think it gives to Indian EV makers?

Piyush Goyal: I was seeing some of the electric vehicles that India now manufactures, they were on display in one of our programs for the German business delegation that had come in. I'm also next week going to be seeing Mahindra's new car, which I believe is very smart. Ola has come out with some beautiful options. I see TVS and Bajaj, all of them coming out with really very smart and very beautifully designed international world-class vehicles. My sense is that we have to be bold about it.

Not only the domestic market, which we must try to capture, but each of these manufacturers of electric vehicles should quickly also look at capturing world markets. My concern very often is that we get into a cocoon with such a comfortable situation, large domestic market, that we don't ever try to foray out. I believe if they were to look at the export market more aggressively, they could improve their own economies of scale going for much larger factories, much larger scale of production, and become even more competitive, both domestically and internationally. So I would think with the wonderful products India makes, we should not let any market go. We should be much more aggressive in the marketplace, international market.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: In terms of foreign automakers entering India, one is of course the Tesla, whether it's coming or not, and we'll see what happens. What about Chinese EV makers? Because they are also now emerging as leaders in the EV ecosystem. Is there any, I know obviously there is the border issue with China, but is that something which the government is thinking about?

Piyush Goyal: Well, as of now, we have a Press Note 3, which mandates that government approval will be required for any Chinese investments. And any applications that Chinese companies or Indian partners make go through that Press Note 3 process. To the best of my knowledge, we have not approved any Chinese manufacturer ever since the Press Note came out to infuse equity into any automobile manufacturer.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Right. And as far as Mr. Elon Musk is concerned, it's still radio silence, or is it?

Piyush Goyal: Well, we cannot decide on behalf of somebody else whether they choose to come into India or they do not choose to come into India. I can only say that we are ready and happy and willing to create the conditions that will attract more and more companies, whether it's Tesla, whether it's BMW, whether it's Mercedes, whether it's Volvo, or whoever else makes electric vehicles. We'd like all of them to come to India and manufacture in India. We are happy to create the benchmark conditions, the local positive environment to attract their manufacturing in India. We are happy to go an extra mile to support them in setting up their charging systems all over the country. But all our policies will be individual or company agnostic. They will be for the industry, and everybody will be happy to come in, and we will be delighted to see all of them. We'll be delighted to see Mr. Elon Musk and Tesla come to India.

And personally, I think anybody who misses this opportunity of coming to India does so at their own risk and cost, because this is the world's largest market today, 1.4 billion aspirational Indians. And the big advantage of India, ladies and gentlemen, is that most vehicle owners will be first-time owners. In the developed world, they already have their ICE engine car, so they will be replacing that with a new technology electric vehicle. Replacement is always a bigger challenge, but when somebody is buying their vehicle for the first time, it's much easier to attract them to an electric vehicle. I would think that if Mr. Elon Musk or if Tesla was to come to India and open the bookings for their vehicle in India, probably they'll end up getting 100,000 cars booked in the first day itself.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Yes. Yeah. Probably. It has great brand value. Okay. So, while this conference is about electric mobility, but for a country like India, should there be multi-paths on this journey? For example, what about hybrids? What about even, what are your views also on so-called intermediate technologies like CNG?

Piyush Goyal: Well, we welcome every technology that helps reduce the carbon footprint. So we are happy if CNG or any of these other intermediate technologies come in. We are happy to promote hydrogen. It's a long way off before it can be used in vehicles, but I believe that possibly some large commercial vehicles like trucks and buses, they are exploring the hydrogen option. It's a little expensive, but you have to keep innovating and working on it. Unless you experiment, you will never get anywhere. So even though it's more expensive today, I think we must continue to study and explore even other possibilities, whether it's ethanol-driven buses, which Mr. Gadkari is very passionate about, whether it's CNG, whether it's hydrogen.

As regards the hybrid technologies, personally, while I do use a hybrid car for the last more than 10 years, I've never been a fan of hybrid per se. I believe that running the petrol engine only to charge a small battery of half a kilowatt or one kilowatt and using it to drive your car doesn't really give you any great savings. I've not found any great fuel savings in the hybrid car. It's just that it's a nice car and well-designed, very smooth, very silent that I continue to use it, and somewhat less polluting than the ICE engine. And I don't have to bother about range anxiety or about charging the vehicle. But we have an open mind. I mean, I don't think any of us should close our mind to options. So off late, I came into researching and studying about plug-in hybrids, where the battery size has been made one-third, and it only runs for about 100 kilometres. So against a 50-kilowatt or 60-kilowatt battery, which typically a four-wheeler passenger vehicle would have, giving you 400, 500-kilometer range, to assuage any concerns buyers may have.

And I believe range anxiety is one of the biggest concerns in electric mobility. Instead of that 50, 60-kilowatt battery, which is the biggest cost on the automobile, they are now looking at reducing that to a 15, 17-kilowatt battery, which drives your vehicle for the first 100 kilometres. And if you are not able to charge that battery and have crossed, or are expected to cross 100 kilometres, it also has the ICE engine. You just need to switch off the battery and switch on the ICE engine. And lo and behold, you start running on the petrol part of the vehicle, or diesel vehicle. End of the day, the larger part of your petrol consumption is saved, or crude consumption is saved.

I saw my own user case. 99% of the days, my car doesn't go more than 100 kilometres. And if each one of you, or you could run a poll on this, through your Network 18 channel, ask people how many days in a year does their car run more than 100 kilometres in a day. And my gut sense is that 95% of the days, no passenger vehicle would be running more than 100 kilometres in a day. Even in a remote, coming from a remote place, or coming from Gurgaon to Delhi, and going back to Gurugram, or going from Nariman Point all the way to my constituency in Borivali or Dahisar and back, you would still be able to do it in 100 kilometres. And there's no range anxiety, because if you do cross that, and 10, 20, 50, 100 kilometres extra on any particular day, you switch on the petrol engine, and lo and behold, you can drive as long as you like.

That way, I think we'll cut down our crude imports very significantly. The ICE engine will not get totally obsolete, which is one of the reasons why automakers are also resisting the electric mobility. And all of us can contribute to reducing carbon footprint. Cost of the electric vehicle will fall significantly, even though it will have a second ICE engine. But battery costs will reduce from 50, 60 kilowatts to 15 kilowatts. So I thought that was a very exciting possibility. My preliminary studies tell me that we should look at that and market that much more. But again, it's for the private sector and the companies to decide. As I said, government is not mandating anything.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: No, so let me, you provided an opening when you said automakers resisting electric mobility in India. So obviously, they have investments, they have sunk costs in the form of huge investments in petrol and diesel technologies. Do you think this is a significant obstacle in the widespread adoption of EV technologies in India?

Piyush Goyal: I'm given to understand, and I'm pretty sad about it, that some of the automakers are worried about the large investments they've done in the past. I think they're being very myopic in their thinking. If I was in their shoes, I would look at the overall investment in plant and machinery, and I would find that the investment which will go dead is a very small component, just the ice engine part, the shell and the upholstery, the seats, the airbags, the steering, everything else continues to be used. It'll be better to forego a small investment, but to try and capture larger market share and contribute to the climate action that we are all, in a way, all of us are committed to be a part of.

I would look at it that way. If they continue to hog those ice engines beyond a point, I suspect some of these companies will become obsolete in the future. And I'm finding more and more companies which resisted electric mobility in the past are now also looking at getting into electric vehicles.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: So Minister, many companies at a global level and some countries have also announced policies that beyond a certain year, say 2035 or 2040, you won't be allowed to sell any new petrol or diesel cars. Is something like that under consideration?

Piyush Goyal: As I said before, we believe that we should not be mandating what has to be done. I can already see before my eyes that electric mobility is becoming an economically viable use case. Our country's population is very intelligent. They will automatically decide to go for electric vehicles.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Right. Okay. So you don't believe in any mandates of that kind?

Piyush Goyal: Since you're pushing the envelope on the question, I'm repeating that I don't believe that it is necessary.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Okay. So while there's a lot of the movements towards EVs obviously driven by the, you know, the climate change, the challenges of climate change and so on, Mr. Trump, I mean, there have also been strong political countercurrents in the West, right? Where, for example, Mr. Trump may or may not believe in climate change. So the question really was that, and he may now believe in EVs because—

Piyush Goyal: I was just going to say that.  It's almost like a jugal bandhi. I was just going to say that, that whatever may be the views in the first term, I'm sure this time around he will be a strong proponent of electric mobility.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Right. Okay. Well, let's see. I mean, he's yet to come to power and he can change his mind and he may not also be best friends with Elon Musk forever.

Piyush Goyal: Well, I hope they remain good friends.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Right. So, but that's not going to, I mean, what I'm trying to say is that obviously what happens in the US and we'll see what happens, it does influence the rest of the world, including, you know, big emerging markets like India, the direction of policy and so on and so forth. So you don't see, it's not just also electricity, right? I mean, he has said that he is in favour of oil and gas, even of coal, which is the, you know, the chief villain in, you know, but you don't see that impacting India's national goals in any way.

Piyush Goyal: First of all, let me tell you, coal is not a villain at all. Coal is what is powering your home and my home and this program also. And we have a right to use low-cost energy made out of coal, which is our indigenous product, just as the Western countries or the developed countries in Europe or America or Japan or Korea have used low-cost energy as the principal driver of their economic growth and their prosperity.

None of these countries would have been where they are today with per capita incomes of $50,000 and $80,000 and $100,000 if it was not for low-cost energy, largely coming out of coal. Once they have achieved their national objectives of growth and development and prosperity for their people, it's very nice to preach that coal is a villain and coal is bad. And we completely reject that argument. We need a base load in the country. Our base load comes out of coal and we will need that coal-based base load to inject all the large quantity of renewable energy that we produce. By the way, we are one of the best-performing countries in the G20, all the major economies, when it comes to meeting our nationally determined contributions that were decided in Paris at the COP21 in 2015. We are one of those few countries who have exceeded what we had committed. We had committed a certain amount of renewable energy, 45% of our installed capacity, by 2030. We have already achieved that in 2022, eight years ahead of schedule.

And now Prime Minister Modi has increased our renewable energy target from 200 gigawatt, which we now have, to 500 gigawatt. The world's fastest rollout of renewable energy has happened under Prime Minister Modi's government. So we are a government very sensitive to nature, to the environment. As a nation, 140 crore Indians are very sensitive to nature and the environment. If we go around the room, you'll have people who pray to the sun god, pray to the moon god, pray to the rivers, pray to the trees. We find godliness in everybody and everything. That's the beauty of India. That's our legacy. That's our history. That's our culture. That's our tradition. That's our strength. We are a country which never believed in waste. You go back home and if you leave behind in your plate a lot of food. I think my mother, she's no more now. But my wife would certainly tell me, why are you wasting so much food? Why did you take so much in your plate in the first place?

When you and I were kids, if we ever left a room without switching off the light or the fan, my mother would give me a smack on my face. These kids these days don't have to suffer that anymore. Though I sometimes feel that this consciousness that we have in India is our biggest strength. This consciousness that waste is not good. This consciousness that whatever we have in extra or surplus, let's share it with some lesser privileged person or somebody who needs it. That is our strength, what Prime Minister Modi has offered to the world as mission life. Lifestyle for environment. And I believe that's the life we all live. If we don't, we must live. We must be conscious about the circular economy. We must be conscious about reducing if not eliminating waste and wasteful consumption. I still for the life of me cannot understand why we cannot reduce the size of a pizza or the Coke or coffee cup. A, a lot of it is wasted. B, in any case it's not good for our health to be having so much of it.

So it's really sad that the world is not willing to reduce wasteful consumption because to my mind and in my understanding, the problem of climate change is not emanating from manufacturing. It's emanating from consumption. As long as there will be wasteful and excessive consumption, somebody or the other will manufacture to meet that demand. It's consumption which is the source of the carbon up there, the damage to the ozone layer of the problem of climate change. And till this message is understood by 7 billion people around the world, we will not be able to solve the problem of climate change.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: I just wanted to, I'll just come to a couple of questions on the economy also since we have you here. But I'll just ask, one of the issues which you did allude to is the biggest obstacle for EVs is the range anxiety. So where are we in terms of developing a nationwide, you know, charging infrastructure?

Piyush Goyal: Well, I see some very impressive steps being taken by industry. Just yesterday, one of the companies which is into swapping of batteries and promoting common charging and common batteries across the country was showing me on his mobile, his app about the presence of their charging system throughout Delhi. And they've created an ecosystem which is there in probably every two kilometres or less. They have a proper charging and swapping station. Now, these are things which really grow out from a nucleus. I'm seeing the charging ecosystem developing across the nation. All the major cities, Prime Minister Modi has already guided us that we should have this charging ecosystem and almost every petrol pump gas station across the country, we should promote more and more charging stations and residents associations, in common public parking places.

So I think this is something which normally takes off a little slow, but once the inflection point is met or achieved, and costs come down, and we're already finding battery costs, and charger costs, fast charger costs come down. This will take off and overnight you will not realize. When this whole ecosystem comes up across the country, it's doing really well and I must compliment Indian industry for the work that they're doing in this.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: Right. So I'll just ask you one sort of question on the GDP growth. The last GDP growth came in at 5.4, which was below expectations. And I think this was, of course, before the GDP, if we get another get another discussion, I also asked you your views on this. So will the government think of increasing capex? You also talked about various other policies. What's, for example, you advised. certain sections of industry that they could consider cutting prices, right? On a similar way, not exactly the same, but the CA also made the point that while corporate profits were very high, the wage growth in the last few years had been, you know, low single digits. So what are your thoughts on it?

Piyush Goyal: Well, I think, as was mentioned by the Honourable Finance Minister recently, clearly the Q1 was a period when we had elections, Q2 also we had some major elections, but the lag effect of the May June election obviously continued for some time. But we can already see that capex, both public spending, government spending, and private spending, is picking up. The third quarter preliminary figures of the first two, two and a half months. seem to be showing good numbers. The GST collection is one indicator. Exports is another indicator. And by and large, my sense is that a, you'll see that by the time we reach March 25, we would have made up for some of the lost ground and will continue to be the world's fastest growing large economy.

Having said that, I think it'll also be important to see how other countries and the geopolitical situation plays out. Probably we may see some of these conflicts around the world also softening in the months and quarters to come. Overall, India is in a sweet spot. The mood of the nation is very positive. The mood of government to encourage industry both to meet the domestic demand and to take our offerings across the world is clearly there. We stand with industry. We are working towards both better quality and inclusive growth, sustainability and inclusive growth. And we are working towards ensuring that sustainability is at the core of all our activities.

With this kind of a decisive leadership that the nation has, and with states like Haryana and Maharashtra, which are both growth engines now out of the cusp of electoral politics into action more, I think the future looks good. Normally, I never look at the stock market as any barometer or any indicator of these things. But you can already see the stock market showing a bounce back. Possibly because, as we all know, the stock market discounts the future. They must be seeing that the future looks to be pretty good. The future seems to show that consumption is coming back. There is rural demand. As I am informed by some of my friends who are engaged with rural supplies are suggesting that rural demand is back and monsoon has been very good. So all things in the aggregate seem to suggest a good future in the days to come.

Bodhisatva Ganguli: In fact, a lot of IPOs also in the last couple of weeks, fairly decent. That's also an indication. One last question. Are we ready to embrace when President Trump comes to power, India hasn't so far played, has not figured in any of the pronouncements on tariffs, which he has made. Are we ready to embrace a Trump presidency?

Piyush Goyal: Modi, as I've always believed, India is a friend to all. Over the last 10 years, Prime Minister Modi has worked first with the Obama administration Then with the Trump administration, then with the Biden administration, and we'll again work with the Trump administration, thanks to the blessings of the people of India who have given an unprecedented third term, right? I see unprecedented because it's happened in India after several decades. B and more importantly, if you look at elections across the world, between 2023 and 2024 when many, many major democracies have gone through the electoral cycle, almost everywhere, every major country has seen a change in government. Countries like Japan, where the LDP lost, are seeing a change in government after decades and decades. They already always had the one party rule. Government in France, many other governments, which will soon be going into elections are also shaking. Clearly shows that Prime Minister Modi has earned the goodwill, the love and affection and the trust of the people of India who have given him the third term to serve.

And I'm sure, just like he only improved the relations with the United States of America, with every subsequent US administration. In his third term, our relations with the United States government will only get bigger and better, and we'll see a lot of positivity in this relationship, and a lot of goodwill that both the leaders share along with their friendship, the trust that Prime Minister Modi and President Trump have demonstrated in the past and will continue to further enhance in the days to come. Future is bright for India is all that I can say. In conclusion, we have a very, very bright future for the people of India.