The Supreme Court on Tuesday sought the government's response on a plea of farmers' organisations challenging the legality of the fresh promulgation of the Land Acquisition Ordinance. The farmers' organisations, in their plea filed on April 9, have challenged the re-promulgated land ordinance, terming it as "unconstitutional" and ultra vires of the Constitution, besides being a "colourful exercise of power" by the executive to "usurp" the law-making powers of the legislature.
The man who leads the government charge against UPA's Land Bill says the Centre will not budge on changes to the bill. Union transport and shipping minister Nitin Gadkari spoke exclusively to CNBC-TV18's Shereen Bhan- saying the Centre will also challenge the green tribunal's order against old diesel vehicles plying in Delhi.
He also spoke about his ambitious plans to spruce up road projects that are stalled.
Below is the transcript of Nitin Gadkari’s interview with CNBC-TV18's Shereen BhanQ: Let me start by asking you about news that hit the headlines today and that is the Supreme Court issuing a notice on the Land ordinance to the government asking why the ordinance was re-promulgated. The appeal has been made by Non Government Organisations (NGOs) representing four farmer unions in specific and they say that the re-promulgation and the proroguing of the Budget session amounts to a fraud in the Constitution. What is the government’s response going to be?A: First of all they have right to appeal in the Supreme Court. Now the stay is not granted Supreme Court asking the government reply for that, we will submit to the Supreme Court, that is not the problem. The problem is that before December 31 if we cannot get that Ordinance, otherwise the situation will be such that – even we won’t be in position to give the 1:4, 1:2 compensation to the farmer because in the previous Act there was a provision that the last date for execution will be up December 31.
Q: But there is opposition including from your own allies. In the Lok Sabha you enjoy the majority, but you didn’t table it in the Rajya Sabha, you chose to prorogue the Budget session and instead re-promulgate the ordinance. It raises question in people’s minds as to the desperation for this government to clear this Ordinance?A: Who is responsible for that when the bill is passed by parliament? Only in the Rajya Sabha, for two times, it is the Rajya Sabha opposition. When there was a discussion we were ready to cooperate with them. We are ready to accept their suggestion at the same time. They have decided they should not pass this bill in the Rajya Sabha. That was the reason we had to make an ordinance. It is because of the non cooperation of the officials in the Rajya Sabha. How are we responsible for that?
Q: Are you going to make changes as far as the two contentious issues, 9 amendments have been moved by your government in the bill that has been passed by the Lok Sabha but are you willing to make any concessions on the two controversial and crucial issues of consent and social impact assessment? That is what the opposition claims is the effort to sort of try and be pro-corporate. You yourself have stated on record that you are willing to take more suggestions onboard and make more amendments. Can we expect any dilution as far as consent and social impact assessment is concerned?A: First of all you have to understand what is the meaning of consent clause. Eighty percent of the land in the country, its acquisition is only for irrigation. Now in irrigation if we have to make one dam, for 3000 acre the dam is there and for 3 lakh acres of land they get water from it. Now this consent clause says 80 percent of the farmers, if they give the permission, we can make the dam.Now suppose you have a house in the road construction and widening of the road is very essential. Present road sees a lot of accidents. So, in the public interest we have to increase the width of the road. If we have taken their land for the widening of the road, if 80 percent of people say no we will not give you any land, we cannot extend that road.Suppose if anywhere we want to make low cost housing for the poor people and if 80 percent of people say no we will not give you land, it means that. What is the meaning you understand?Q: Then you go back to the original law, the law that was attempting to be changed by the 2013 Act. The eminent domain then comes right back to where it was?A: You are not correct. In the bill which is passed by UPA in parliament, almost their 13 Acts – Coal Mines Act, Mining Act, Railways Act everywhere there is an exemption from consent clause and social impact assessment (SIA).I am asking you a simple question, to the opposition party particularly the Congress — in the Coal Mines Act you acquire the land and without any transparent process you allot coal mines to big industrialists of this country, CAG gave a report that this is a loss to the country of Rs 1 lakh 88 thousand crore and in the auction of 20 mines we get Rs 2 lakh crore. Now I am asking a question to the Congress, at the time when you acquired the land and gave coal mines to the big people you never remembered this consent clause and SIA?
Q: Any dilution at all possible as far as SIA and consent is concerned?
A: What is the meaning of consent clause? If you accept consent clause and SIA means you cannot start any industry.
Q: Your former ministry, the rural development ministry has apparently written to state governments saying under the Pradhan Mantri Gram Sadak Yojana because the World Bank is funding large parts of that scheme please make sure that whatever clearances you need, whether it is environment, forest, SIA, consent is adhered to. Why then that double standard? If it is okay for the World Bank, why should it not be okay for all the other projects that the government is hoping to tale forward?
A: There is no double standard. There are three subjects in the constitution. One is in the state list where state is authorised to make the law for that.
Second list is the centre list where the central government is responsible and authorised to make the law and third list is the concurrent list. Already the Land Acquisition Act is in the concurrent list. When the Congress party passed the bill the Prithviraj Chavan government in Maharashtra they took an exact decision opposite this law.
The Hooda ministry, it is a great miracle for me, the person who acquired lakhs of acres of land of farmers – the Chief Minister of Haryana now he is fighting against land acquisition.
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Q: There is political double speak on this issue from both sides. Your party supported it, your party wanted 100 percent consent. I know what Sumitra Mahajan and the parliamentary standing committee headed by Ms Mahajan had said so let’s not go down the political road but you are basically ruling out any dilution as far as consent and social impact assessment is concerned.
A: I am very much clear and our government is very much clear. If you are going to implement consent laws and the SIA, there will be no irrigation in the country, now there will be no rural infrastructure, we cannot acquire any land for defence and security purposes, we cannot acquire any land for rural in an area for low cost housing for poor people, landless and homeless people and this is against the country.
Q: Will you attempt to bring the bill to the Rajya Sabha in the next session of parliament?
A: Actually it is a procedure, we have to go to Rajya Sabha, we will try to convince them. Now the Biju Janata Dal (BJD) is supporting us .
Q: Have you managed to convince your own allies?
A: The problem is that all people when talking individually they are always talking against this act. When they are sitting in the parliament they are taking position to oppose this act. I am telling you the Congress example, I have got letters from Prithiviraj Chavan, I have got the letters from the Haryana Ministry-all state governments belong to Left parties, Samajwadi party, all had opposed this Act in written.
Q: I am aware of that and I had a conversation with you then.
A: Actually (it is needed) if you want progress of this country, if you want to eradicate poverty, if you want to increase employment in the country, if you want to increase the agricultural growth rate. You just understand when Narendra Modi was the Chief Minister of Gujarat he made Narmada sarovar and dams, that is why the 20 percent water level has increased in Gujarat, agriculture growth rate is 14 percent. In Madhya Pradesh under Shivraj Singh Chavan agriculture growth rate is 23 percent, it is because of irrigation. Now this Congress party, this opposition party they are making all these things against farmers because they do not want to give water to the farmers. I ask you a question, 70percent of rainwater is going to the sea, 15 percent going to lake or a dam, 15 percent going into water conservation. If 70 percent going into sea, is it not in the interest of the country and the farmer to stop that water?
A: Absolutely but as I said there is going to be politics that will play out as far as this issue is concerned. So let me move on and ask you the next question which also relates to the courts in a sense and that is the order of the National Green Tribunal (NGT) to ban diesel vehicles over 10 years and petrol vehicles over 15 years from plying in the NCR region. Are you going to appeal that because I understand that truckers have now threatened to go on an indefinite strike against that order and of course the order has now been stayed to two weeks, the NGT has given the government time to respond?
A: Frankly speaking we welcome this order because pollution is a big problem. Swachh Bharat, Pradushan Mukt Bharat is our mission but now the problem is already my department encouraging ethanol, biodiesel, biogas, electric which give permission to e-ricksha. We are making 100 percent this fuel. When we go for Hydrogen we go for Hybrid Models to reduce the pollution but within two weeks it will not possible. Lot of people have taken a loan from the banks, it will take some time at least six months to make a exact correct policy for that and to implementation of it we will need some two three years for that.
Q: So you will appeal against this order?
A: Yes we have decided to appeal in Supreme Court and we are admitting that. We have accept the spirit of the Green Tribunal but at the same time within two weeks to implement this order is practically impossible.
Q: So, what is your plea going to be to the courts? A: We are going to appeal to the Supreme Court Q: So you will seek more time for the transition? A: 100 percent. We are of the same opinion. There are options, we can convert these diesel vehicles on CNG, we can make some hybrid models there.
Q: So how much time will you seek then? A: Actually we need six months to make the policies; we have to approve the kits. We have the technology are there by which we can reduce the pollution. We are going to make some committee under the technical people by which how we can reduce the pollution and at the same we are going to take some technical measure for that of international standards. Q: So, six months is what you will seek? A: We have to take the all research and the technology involved. Q: Let me now ask you about the road sector and the combined exposure of banks to the road sector stands at about Rs 1.67 lakh crore as of the month of February. A couple of weeks ago when I had a conversation with the Finance Minister he said that in order to revive stalled road projects the government is looking at providing some sort of a lifeline. Can you update us on what the current situation is, what is going to be this lifeline and should the banking sector be worried because of the exposure to the road sector at this point in time. How are you going to alleviate the pain? A: Actually when I took charge as a Minister, our road construction was 2 km per day. At the end of the month it was 12 km per day and at the end of May probably it will go to 14 km per day Q: At the end of May, 14 km per day? A: One year when we complete our government it will be 14 km per day. When I taken a charge as a Minister there was a project of Rs 3,80,000 crore approximately that was stuck up, we have decided to take the decision. The project was stuck up because of land acquisition problem, project was stuck up because of environmental forest problem, railway over bridges problem, somewhere litigation was there so we have taken a decision. The online system started by railway, because of that 78 ROB projects already have been cleared by the railway. The Environment and Forest Ministry more than 70-80 projects they are also cleared. Now 44 projects the contractor concession is not ready to work, they say it is practically impossible because three years, two years delay is there, cost is increase so we make a golden shake hand and terminated 44 projects. Then 84-88 projects we have find out the way out, we have given them the clearance and the projects are running now they are moving fast. Out of 26 projects there is a problem that we cannot find some solution because of our limitation so we approach the cabinet. Three suggestions we have already given to the cabinet, now we have already meeting with the Finance Minister and this cabinet note is pending. After the clearance of this note, supposedly by the end of April, there will be more problems.
Q: What is going to be the solution, what is it that you have proposed to the Finance Ministry and the cabinet in terms of the solution to revive these stalled 24 projects? A: Actually there are three proposals, one is suppose a company have got 5 projects and one project is completed, in present law they cannot sell their project. If they can sell their one project they can complete the four projects. Q: So you are making the exit clause easier? A: So, that is where we have to get the permission. Second problem we have to somewhere there is a problem of land acquisition, environment, other problem which is a government problem state or central. In that case there is a five percent penalty is there so we are requesting we will make one person a penalty and we will close the project. So, that is the second thing and third thing is there are some small decisions where our department needs to authorize to take the decision in NHAI board or to the ministry so by which I feel that we can solve our 100 percent problems and these 26 projects if the cabinet note is to be cleared, there will be no problem up to end of April or in any interview I will give you in May first week…(interrupted) Q: All stalled projects will be done? A: Every problem is solved, 100 percent problem solved. Now I request to the bankers don’t bother. Q: So you are telling the bankers not to bother, everything will be alright? A: Now we have introduced a new system that is hybrid project where 40 percent of the cost of the project is given by the government, 60 percent from the concessionary out of which 30 percent from the concessionary and the other 70 percent from the banks and there is environment, forest clearances, land acquisition in response of the government and at the same time on annuity an interest cost plus two to three percent profit will give them. So, it can be an easy model for them and now we are already going for tender for new 14 projects on hybrid model and the people are giving good response to it. Q: 14 projects under the hybrid models, what does that mean in terms of the target because the last conversation we had with you, you said 15,000 kilometers of roads in two fiscals which means by March 2016. You are standing by that target or you are going to exceed that target? A: I want to rectify you. I have a target within two years of this government. In May one year is completed, in the next May we will give you – this is my target, I don’t know whether I will succeed or not, but it is my plan that will be 30 kilometers per day. So that is the target and I am confident that I will complete that.
Q: The budgetary outlay for the roads stands at about Rs 40,000 crore as far as Budget FY16 is concerned. The hybrid model that you are talking about, NHAI, has got the cabinet or the government approval to launch tax free bonds, what about funding and what about the tax free bonds, how soon, how much for NHAI?
A: No, we have no problem for funds. We have Rs 42,000 crore Budget from the Finance Minister. The NHAI’s toll collection is approximately Rs 8,000-10,000 crore. We can get easily securitize Rs 1,40,000-1,50,000 crore of toll income in the next 15 years of.
Q: Do you still believe you can get that kind of money as far as the toll collection is concerned, given the no-toll policy is being announced by governments like that of Maharashtra, which the other state governments might follow?
A: It is up on NHAI. It is central government's right to take a decision, but we are also going to think about some reforms, some new things in the toll policy but I will (interrupted..)
Q: But the last time we spoke you said that you will be announcing a new toll policy, what do you had to say as far as the no toll policy is concerned exempting cars from paying toll at 53 points, toll collections shut down as far as 12 projects are concerned. Do you believe that this is the right approach?
A: You know that already 62 projects which are less than Rs 100 crore have been exemptied. In the same way in the (interrupted..)
Q: So if other governments also follow this Maharashtra route you will be able to achieve the ambitious toll target you have set out?
A: We have to reduce pressure off the people. There is a lot of agitation in the mind of people and we have to find a way out in a welfare state, in a democracy. We have to relate to the poor and the middle class people both.
Q: So when will we see your new toll policy or no toll policy, the Freudian slip perhaps?
A: It will not be appropriate to give away the details because it is stil under consideration of the cabinet. First I have to take approval from the cabinet and the Prime Minister.
Q: How soon sir?
A: I feel, by the end of this month.
Q: End of this month a new toll policy will get cabinet approval?
A: It is upto the cabinet to decide, but I am confident that after the Prime Minister coming to India by (interrupted..)
Q: Is Maharashtra policy going to be the model for the policy that you will announce?
A: No, I don’t want to make any comments on that because I can't declare it. It is a secret thing, a confidential matter. It is related to the approval of the Prime Minister and the cabinet.
Q: Let me ask you about another project that is the Trans Harbour Link project. Reports seem to suggest that you are not giving Mr Fadnavis clearances and approvals to go ahead with that project. He wants to start that project in December. Truth to those reports or is this an exaggeration?
A: It is very unfortunate to see what media is diong. It is not good. Actually, my opinion is that we should have an underground tunnel by which we can make (interrupted..)
Q: Is it feasible?
A: When I am talking, it is 100 percent feasible. My track record is whatever I say I always complete that work. There is a study report, we are going to open a consultant. I will tell you, I will clear the matter. Devendraji is of the vision that he can make a coastal road and he wants to make that Nhava Sheva to Sewri project. That was when I was the minister. I had planned that project. Now I have had discussions with the Chief Minister. I had said whatever he and the Maharashtra government had to decide I would support that.
Q: But the Maharashtra government has apparently written to you three times over asking for clearances to use the JNPT land as well as the Mumbai Port Trust land and still clearances are not coming from your ministry?
A: As far as this Nhava Sheva to Sewri are concerned, they don’t need BPT land. Media is mis-informed. Firstly, if somewhere JNPT need the land, we are ready for that. We have no problem. We will support whatever decision the Maharashtra government, the Chief Minister have to take . Final authority wil be the Maharashtra government and the Chief Minister.
Q: So, you won’t insist on an underground tunnel?
A: Not at all. He wants to protect the interest of Maharashtra. I am also from Maharashtra, but now he is the Chief Minister and his government whatever they are feeling on that way we are ready to cooperate.
Q: You didn’t answer the question as far as NHAI’s tax free bonds were concerned. Are we likely to see that any time soon and how much?
A: Presently we have permission from the finance ministry for some Rs 60,000-70,000 crore from tax exemption bonds. In April first week already the order was issued and now the pension for an insurance fund in India they can give it to infrastructure projects. Now we are also in discussion with the Canadian and American funds. Next month I am going to Japan. There is an invitation for me from the Japan government. We are also thinking that we can bring their money. Actually in our port and shipping corporation, we have approximately a turnover of USD 4,000 crore. So, now this is the money which is available with us. We are going to make an instrument by which without hedging we can get this low interest cost fund for our infrastructure. One committee is appointed (interrupted..)
Q: So then the tax free bond is a not a priority for you at this point in time?
A: If you need money we can go for it at any time. Presently there is no shortage of money.
Q: Let me ask you very quickly as far as the port plan is concerned because you have been talking about five more ports, two new ports have already been announced at a cost of about Rs 16,000 crore at West Bengal and Andhra Pradesh. When can you see this port corporatisation plan which was announced in the Budget also take off?
A: The note is pending with the cabinet.
Q: Every note of yours is pending with the cabinet?
A: It is the procedure. I have already given my note to the cabinet and after their approval of I will have to submit this bill to the parliament and after the sanction of the parliament and only after thatcan I come (interrupted..)
Q: So what is going to be the plan as far as port corporatisation is concerned and how concerned are you about unions threatening to sort of derail this process?
A: Not at all. I have already had a good meeting with the unions. I have assured that we will not terminate a single person from the port, we will protect their interest, whatever their interests are there, we will not touch anything and we will see that all their rights and privilege be protected. But for making a port of international standards we need good technology, investments and expansion of ports. For that purpose we will have to work fast professionally and if we get to pronounce some of the ports we are not even getting profits. Kolkata port is in very big loss. Even in (Jawahar port ---6:44--NOT SURE-----) there is no work for iron ore. In Cochin we are facing problems. So, these are loss making ports, now we have to think about expansion of ports by which we get good profits. Otherwise how is it possible for us to give the pension, how can we give salaries?
Q: Would you look at strategic divestment as far as the ports are concerned?
A: We will think about it. In Cochin Shipyard it is a really good company of my department. It is doing good job.
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