Marya Shakil CNN-News 18
In an interview to CNN-News 18, Kamal Nath, the new Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh, tells how this role is going to be the biggest challenge he will face in his four-decade-long political career.
Edited excerpts:
Q. Only yesterday you said that this is a milestone in your political career. You are a seasoned politician, a 9-time MP and a former Union Commerce minister. So, why do you see this as a milestone in your political career?
This is my first experience in the state and that is why it is a milestone. I consider this to be perhaps my biggest challenge till date. Being a minister in the Centre is very different from being CM in the state. In the state, you encompass everything. There is such a wide spectrum of experience and knowledge that is required
Q. So the next five years, how are you looking at the Congress party's prospects in Madhya Pradesh?
The first challenge is the upcoming Lok Sabha polls. The people of the state have seen the writing on the wall. Every section of the society is in distress. There are challenges with the finances of the state. The state is bankrupt and we have to find out how we can tighten our belt and cost-cutting measures we need to undertake. The whole economy of the state has to be looked at differently. Around 70% of the people are indirectly or directly connected with agriculture. They may not be farmers, but the shopkeeper's fortune in the village depends on the purchasing power of the farmer. The tractor driver is also dependent on agriculture. So, across the state, we've got to put the economy in a proper perspective. We are not an industrial state. Our effort will be to look at the economy in a completely different way.
Q. Talking specifically about the promises you made on farm loan waivers, have you set a timeline? I clearly remember Rahul Gandhi telling that if if people of Madhya Pradesh vote for Congress, then they would implememt their farm loan waiver policy in 10 days. So when is that 10th day going to come for Kamal Nath?
The tenth day is the tenth day. Our manifesto says that within 10 days and there is a reason and a logic behind this. A farmer is born in debt. He dies in debt and he is such an important component of our economy that unless we put him on a better anvil, the agricultural sector will never improve. So, the farm loan waiver is very important. If the banks can waive off, can take a haircut, can waive off 50% of the loans to business houses, why can't it be done for farmers?
Q. But people say it is bad economics because the state of Madhya Pradesh may not be in a position to go ahead with this scheme. Did you make a tall promise which will be difficult to implement?
It is not bad economics. All those who say bad economics don't know economics and do not know the state. They also do not understand this country. It is very easy to sit in drawing rooms and make these comments. If you are waiving off loans for the business community, that is good economics and when you waive off 50 per cent of farmer loans, it is bad economics? I don't understand this. I would want to ask the banks that you do this for industry, for business and this is all transparent. It is all on the internet how much the banks have waived off loans for industry and business houses. They have taken a haircut of 40-50% in cases.
Q. Another promise that you had made during the course of election is about gaushalas. Is it going to be implemented or was it a part of the cow politics?
This was not a part of our manifesto. It became a part of our manifesto later. I had gone to a district and in the rallies I saw how badly the cows were being treated. When I started my speech, I said that I saw this happening and I was very disturbed by it. So, it has nothing to do with manifesto. I had announced this three months before our manifesto was released. So, it is a part of our manifesto and I think with the deep respect that we have for cows, it is important to have a gaushala in every panchayat. What is religious about it? It is our sentiment, it is our belief. There is nothing wrong in it. The BJP will say it is Hindutva but are they the authority of the Hindu religion? Have they taken up distribution of Hindu religion? We are as religious as them.
Q. Talking specifically about what you're saying right now. I had done your interview before the election. Then you had said that the BJP doesn't have the distributorship of the Hindu religion. Do you think this is the way forward for the Congress party and re-define their understanding of Hindusim?
We're not redefining anything. I have my own religious beliefs. Four days ago, I went to Kedarnath. I have built the biggest Hanuman temple in Madhya Pradesh but I never publicised it. We don't use religion as a political base. That's what the BJP does and that is the difference. Now, whenever we visit the temples, unfortunately, the media shows it as if we're doing something strange. I go to Kedarnath, Vaishno Devi, Tirupati on a regular basis. But, today if I start doing it, the media will say I am endorsing Hindutva.
Q. Will you be carrying forward the work done by Shivraj Singh Chouhan or will you be undoing it?
I will have to see. Whatever is working, whatever is good for the people, I have to check. It is just not about having a scheme. It is seeing the delivery system. If the system leads to such leakage of funds, I don't want such a scheme.
Q. What about the Vyapam scam?
I have already announced that we will set up a People's Commission to investigate into all the scandals and all the corruption of the previous BJP government. It is not about seeking political vendetta.
Q. Are you ready to give credit to your predecessor that he managed to bring out Madhya Pradesh from the 'BIMARU' state category?
Madhya Pradesh is number one in farmer suicides, unemployment and rape cases. Is this not BIMARU? So just saying that we have come out of that category is akin to fooling people.
Q. How do you think the narrative of rural distress played out, especially keeping in mind Mandsaur?
A constituency has its own characteristics. We may have got your caste equations wrong or put up a a wrong candidate. There is nothing to do with people. What happened in other places? The rural distress came to the fore. We were competing with the organisational strength of the BJP and their money power.
Q. How will it be possible for you to translate the kind of numbers that you managed in this election in 2019?
It is very clear that when we talk about Modi;s popularity, people have started to understand it. We must understand that people in this country are simple and poor but are not fools. They do not want to be tugged. The moment they feel tugged, they will vote against you and this is what the people are feeling after the 2014 elections verdict.
Q. Are you satisfied with the final tally in Chhattisgarh?
I am not satisfied with the 114 seats we have got. We have lost in particular areas where we did not expect to lose. We couldn't match the BJP's organisational skills and money power. But we will overcome our shortcomings.
Q. Are you satisfied with the strategy of not going for a pre-poll alliance with the BSP?
An alliance is there to defeat an opponent. But, what did we see this time? We saw that BSP's vote share has come down. So, when we talk about alliances, we have to look at it from a point of view that it is going to be a win-win situation for both.
Q. You had a formidable opponent in Shivraj and the entire machinery of RSS that was working against you. How did you manage this number?
The BJP had a slogan, Ab ki baar, 200 par. They had this slogan in Gujarat, Ab ki baar, 250 paar and they couldn't even reach 100. All these slogans mean nothing. Of course, the BJP's organisational machinery is very strong and we have to continue building it up. I built whatever I could in the 6-7 months I got. Now, we have to strengthen it.
How did you manage to achieve that feat?
It was an enormous task rebuilding the organisation at the village, block and district levels. We successfully did it to a point but more improvement needs to be done. Then, we went to various other social organisations, reached out to government employees and social organisations so that they could understand the message of the Congress. All I would tell them is the picture is in front of you. See the truth and go and vote for the truth.
Q. I remember very distinctly that you were of the opinion that a number of your party MLAs were not being given certificates despite having won the elections. How will you manage a very, very hostile administration in many ways?
Many administrative changes will have to be made and I am going to make them. I am going to ensure it is based on efficiency, honesty and keeping our institutional arrangements intact. You cannot destroy India's institutional strength. India is a complex country and the complexities are so profound that perhaps no other country has. These complexities have to be sustained by institutional strengths. Our constitutional institutions and even the non-constitutional institutions we have is got to be held together by that. That is what I want to put together because we've completely broken down. You are seeing in the central government, the RBI is divided, CBI is divided and society is being divided. This is now what India is all about and this is not which can be sustained in 10 days.
After you won the state, it took 48 hours for the Congress leadership to finally announce your name. What was the hiccup?
There were consultations, there were no big hiccups. We had the results which came a day before yesterday morning. The results came on the 11th night between 9 pm to midnight and from midnight to 5 pm. Some results were announced at 3 am on the 12th and today is only the 14th. The Congress decided this on 13th evening. How long did the BJP take in Maharashtra? They took about 8 days. How long did they take in Himachal Pardesh? How long did they take in UP? In fact, we have done it faster than what has happened in 5-10 years.
Q. What will be Jyotiraditya Scindia's role in your govt?
Everybody is a participant in the functioning and formation of the government. We all have to work together and we have worked together in the last 7-8 months and we will work together in the future because everybody has a role to play.
Q. In Rajasthan, things were not looking normal. We have seen supporters of Sachin Pilot burn tyres and block roads. Is this the correct way of choosing your leader?
Sometimes, emotions run stray but this is temporary. We don't have any of these kinds of things in Madhya Pradesh. Yesterday, it was Mr. Scindia who proposed my name as the leader of the legislative party. So, we don't have these issues in M.P. We are together and we will remain together.
Before the 2019 Lok Sabha polls, is there going to be some pre-poll alliance with BSP & SP ?
The BJP is in power because of the fragmentation of votes and we must remember that the BJP in 2014 polled 31% of the votes. That means almost 70% of the people of this country voted against the BJP and the BJP announced to the world that we have a national mandate. Perhaps, it is the only political party in the world which got 31% of the vote and said we have a national mandate. We have to stop this fragmentation. We will have to build alliances and that is what I am looking forward to doing. Leaders from different states are working, coordinating with the other for this purpose.
Before you went for this poll, BJP had built this narrative of strong leaders like Shivraj, Raman Singh and Vasundhara Raje against a collective leadership of Congress. Do you think that narrative of strong vs collective leadership stands defeated and the Opposition does not have the burden of selecting PM Modi's replacement in 2019?
We did not have a CM's face in Madhya Pradesh. You had these leaders, who you call big and strong. What happened to them in Chhattisgarh, Madhya Pradesh and Rajasthan? In the end, we must recognise that the people of this country are looking for delivery. They are looking for promises to be kept. Take demonetisation for example. It was a disaster. They have misconceived GST. It has caused so much distress to people. We have more farmer suicides in India than the whole of Africa. So, this is the state of affairs in this country.
Q. In Madhya Pradesh saw a close-finish. Do you think BJP gained momentum after PM Modi's rallies in the state?
I don't think Mr. Modi made any difference. He came to my own district and I had the privilege of having Mr. Modi in my district. I also had the privilege of having Mr. Amit Shah, Mr. Fadnavis and Mr. Gadkari in my district. They failed to win one seat in my district and lost by huge margins.
Are you saying that the Modi magic or the Modi factor had no role to play in these elections and it was only the Congress leadership taking on Shivraj Singh Chouhan?
People trusted Mr. Rahul Gandhi and the Congress party. BJP failed to succeed despite their machinery, publicity and planning They got hammered in Chhatisgarh, Rajasthan and lost in Madhya Pradesh. They've come down from 160 odd seats to 108. What does that demonstrate? It says that Mr. Modi is no longer a vote getting factor. It says that the local leadership is no longer getting votes.
Q. The popular vote is still with Shivraj. You had a greater conversion. So do you see this as a major loss for him as the BJP seems to believe that there was not a clean wave for the Congress party like in Chhattisgarh?
We had little time and I think playing around these numbers does not illustrate anything. They got a 0.1% lead over us. But what is it? If you would have taken out two districts from this, we would have overtaken them. For instance: You can take out Mr. Shivraj Singh Chouhan's voting percentage and you take out some other voting percentage. Thye've got less votes than us. So, these holistic figures that are presented in terms of average, in terms of total votes are misleading. We should look at it, district by district, constituency by constituency. When you look at it, constituency by constituency, you will get a very different picture that how the BJP's vote share has gone down.
But if I were to ask you, what is the one big challenge for Kamal Nath when he takes oath on 17th?
It will be putting the state's finances in order. Our system of governance also needs to change. We have a system for the last 70 years that has not changed. We have to ensure our delivery system improves. But most important is that we're bankrupt. The BJP government has left the state bankrupt. We've got to get into cost-cutting mode and see how will we raise new resources without hurting the people. We have to do a lot of out-of-the box thinking.
From Indira Gandhi to Sanjay Gandhi to Rajiv Gandhi to Sonia Gandhi & Rahul Gandhi, it's been several generation of Gandhis that Kamal Nath has worked with. Who have you been comfortable working with? Can you rate these leaders on the basis of your own equation with them?
Each one has a different style and each one was in a different period. It was in a different age, period, world and in a different India. Sanjay Gandhi was in a different age of India. Mrs. Indira Gandhi was in a different era and had her own style. Mr. Rajiv Gandhi was launching India into the 21st century. That was a different period. Mrs. Sonia Gandhi came in when we had Mr. Vajpayee as the PM. She made him sit at home. Now, Mr. Rahul Gandhi will make Modi sit at home.
Q. Will you return to Delhi after your stint as CM in Madhya Pradesh?
I have spent enough time in Delhi. I was first a minister in 1991. Now, I want to serve my own state.
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