FM Sitharaman on Budget, jobs, rural economy and more – the definitive interview

That’s why I used the expression “this is secularism in action”. We have not shown any discrimination between members belonging to this community or that community or this religion or that religion or someone’s relative or relative. The project reaches the ground for everyone who deserves to get it; if they are eligible, they get it, irrespective of who they are.

Therefore, the principle of empowerment – ‘Sab Ka Saath, Sab Ka Vikaas’ has been executed in every way and that is the sense of confidence we have – that the blessings of the people came not just at the time when we made the promises but are coming in abundantly even now to say “yes, you’ve kept your word”.

It is what the Prime Minister has also been talking about – the four castes – the poor, the women, the farmers, and the youth – the cornerstone of this speech. Nirmala ji, you’ve steered the economy in difficult times. If I look at your last five years, there’s been the pandemic and right now two wars are going on. Even then we have projected to grow at 7.3 percent. If I were to look at nominal GDP which has grown only 10.5 percent, considering inflation of 4-4.5 percent, do you think 7 percent itself would be challenging? Do you think it would be realistic for us?

The Chief Economic Advisor has also commented, he has elaborated on how 7 percent is not difficult to achieve. Globally, the various organisations which look at economies of all countries, like IMF for instance, have also enhanced their assessments.

So, upgrading our growth estimates is not singularly our business. People are seeing that fundamentally a lot of activities are happening. The robustness of the economy has not slackened anywhere; it has maintained the buoyancy with which things are happening. And when I say buoyancy, I am not just talking of revenue collection. So, there is reason to believe, yes, it is possible and not just inflation, the deflator itself here is constantly playing a role, meaning, while we are looking at controlling inflation, the other factors are falling into place.

Therefore, we are confident that on the one hand, we will be able to manage inflation and on the other hand, will keep the robustness in growth so that it is sustained growth. We have made every effort to look at both growth-driving elements and inclusivity-driving elements so that nobody is left out from this growth process – both to contribute and to gain from.

Talking about something that has been commended enough, which earned you a lot of accolades in this Budget – if you take a look at the fiscal glide path, I think you have beaten estimates this year. You’ve projected 5.1 percent next year, which also looks promising… What is your message to the sovereign rating agencies? Are you expecting an upgrade?

Well, I would think that they do their job, but periodically, it is our business also to bring to their notice that economies, particularly emerging market economies like India, despite the odds, we are doing a lot of reforms, systematically, which you are seeing is bearing the results now.

If only Prime Minister Modi had not pressed the paddle, the accelerator during COVID-19, and said that even as we are managing COVID-19, we will have to continue doing the reforms. The Aatma Nirbhar Bharat announcements were all infused with so much reform measures, otherwise we would not have eliminated more than 68,000 rules, which were just so archaic and were becoming instruments for rent seeking people.

So, systemic reforms have continued, whether it was pre-Covid GST and IBC together with many other reforms like professionalizing public sector banks and so on... the emphasis on reforms has given us adequate rewards and we will continue doing that. That is why even in the Budget we have emphasized on transparency; we have emphasized on getting everything on board the budget process itself rather than keeping outside the Budget or underneath the carpet.

These are not small steps and that has been consistently done in the last four-five years and before that as I said IBC or banking reforms – the five major recognition ‘Rs’ as we say, of the problem. So, to list it, there are so many; some small, some very big; the small ones having very big implication in making the economy much cleaner and more open and transparent, the bigger ones that are bearing results in terms of the money that you collect in GST. So, these are not small steps.

That is the one which I would play as important indicators that ratings agencies should look at comprehensibly rather than look at just one detail here, one detail there.

Macroeconomic stability is also very well kept up.

Glad you mentioned reforms. I think the big message coming from you is that the government will continue on the road of reforms. Whether it is cutting the rich tax in an election year, or before that, cutting the corporate rate tax, you've taken some bold measures. What is the next level of reforms that we can expect from you?

For the system to become more transparent, more things will have to be done in order to make sure that we work together with states. It's one thing for the Union government to work on those areas which are exclusively with the central government. But where there are overlaps, there are some states which have come about enthusiastically to say, yes, we should benefit also from this vibrancy which results after such measures are taken. And therefore, when reforms are talked about, we normally always say three levels, where it has to be carried out with the same vigor, the second government, the state government, and then the local bodies. Now working with the State governments has already started happening. In the last few years, you see very many areas where we are working together, the local body level, the municipal, urban local bodies, the panchayats, we need to have greater interchange of ideas and working together with them also, that will also continue now.

With the exception of Air India, no significant, strategic privatization has taken place. Whether it is IDBI, Concor, SCI, banks. Why has your government kind of repeatedly underperformed on this disinvestment aspect? I mean, is the thinking changing within the government? Are you looking at strategic sales and not maybe offer to sell completely? Is there some shift in the thinking?

A: I would want you to put that question into the frame that I have laid in the matter of public sector enterprises policy. If a policy framework has been announced, and in that we've said that there are only core strategic sectors, which government recognizes where the government will be having a minimal presence, and even in those sectors, private sector will be allowed to or it will be completely open for them to participate in total. In the sense that there will not be any one sector inclusive of the core strategic sector, which will be exclusively reserved for the public sector. Whereby, consolidation will have to happen to make the big enough for a big country like India, efficiencies will have to be brought in. Their values will have to be increased. So, this question of yours will have to fit into that frame. I will not reverse any of the Cabinet-approved decisions. But at the same time, you should probably also have noticed that for each of them, we are working to make sure that the valuations are kept up, they are improved upon. If you look at the public sector listing listed companies and the valuation in the market today, you see the kind of vibrancy which has been brought into them, the share values have gone up, and the dividends are even much better than earlier. So, disinvestment is one thing, but in bringing value to them, and making sure that the markets look at them.

In fact, the public sector companies have done really well and public markets are also where they are. Would you consider diluting your stake maybe to 49 percent in some of the companies? Thereby, they're not government-owned, but at the same time, you have the best of both worlds and the valuations could go up even further

Certainly, that is not something that has been denied earlier, meaning as a matter of policy, but in many ways, we are already, you will see periodically, DIPAM has slowly in trickles released a lot of government shares into the market so that private ownerships can come in and can take hold of those shares. So that is happening already.

So, in companies like let's say SBI, ONGC, this could be another possibility?

Absolutely.

One of the big ideas of this Budget which struck everyone as a big idea, has been the announcement of a corpus of Rs 1 lakh crore to provide interest-free or low-interest loans for research and innovation. Can you elaborate on this? How will this work, will there be a separate entity managing this? How will it go forward?

I would bring a bit of context to this. It's not as they are doing it now for the first time. Earlier too, there were several funds within different departments like science and technology. They had CSIR etc, and funds were all over the place. You had them doing supportive activities for innovation, each from their side. Two years ago, I remember announcing the National Research Foundation, which brought together all these thinly-spread resources into one pool. From there, each of the departments would claim whatever they would want to fund in terms of innovation-supportive activities. What we've now done is that they may remain so, but the government would now bring in a kind of institution or vehicle which can take this Rs 1 lakh crore which will be given to them next few years in total, as interest free corpus. Using that, they can then identify innovation-related exercises in private sector and fund them. I may give this interest-free 50 -year loan to the corpus, but the managers of that fund will then decide to whom at what costs should they give it. The cost may vary, depending on the risk factors and the judgment of the professionals who will manage it. But it's certainly a fund from where private innovation will be supported.

Q: I'm sure you will be asked this question in future, but the allocation for capex at Rs 11.1 lakh crore, does it seem like a lofty goal, considering that you could not even do Rs 10 lakh crore in this year?

A: It’s not that we have done only Rs 2-3 lakh crore, that's not the case and we are closer to Rs 10 lakh crore. It's also because absorption has its own limits, whether it's the States or the departments within Government of India. When the capital expenditure is undertaken through the outlays given to them, it is only that much within 12 months that they can do and not beyond. So, sometimes reaching the target, however ambitious it is, to the last mile is difficult within 12 months. Had we given them a few more months, they would probably even complete that. But the condition for this capital expenditure which I have announced in the last two-three years is that that amount should be utilized within the year. So, many of the state governments which take the money and are very good in implementing, in fact I point out that states are very enthusiastic in wanting to avail this facility. The difficulty comes when you restrict them to using it within 12 months and which is what we aim it, we want them to use it within 12 months. So, I'm not saying restricted in that sense but within 12 months, when you expect it to spend that money, there are times when completely utilizing it becomes difficult. That is why out of Rs 10 lakh crore, you might reach Rs 9-9.2 lakh crore, and not touch Rs 10 lakh crore. But achieving this within a matter of 12 months is good enough. I'm very hopeful we will increase it to Rs 11 lakh crore. The amounts which are being given to states are also having high utilization.

Q: We get a sense that there is an indication of tapering of government spending. I know we've discussed this in our last interview as well. You expect private sector to also to do some heavy lifting. So, we are seeing some of the sectors looking up now, there are investments in steel, aviation, power, machinery. Are you happy with the level of private sector participation? You said that they are like Hanuman, and Hanuman has no idea of his own powers. When do you think this Hanuman will lift the economy mountain?

A: They are coming out and there is investment happening, the PLI scheme is also helping them. So, investments in newer areas do have a slightly longer gestation period. It's not as if the brownfield projects are not getting additional money. That also is happening. But the interest in the sunrise sector is really obvious now. People are taking a lot of interest, and you're seeing them coming forward.

Q: That’s heartening news. One more question on the stress that is being seen in the rural economy. Your higher allocation outlay to MGNREGA also betrays the stress on rural economy. If you look at the results of FMCG companies, consumer durable companies, even the Nielsen data shows that the rural volume growth has underperformed urban volume growth for almost seven quarters now in a row. What is your prognosis of rural demand and how do you think we will deal with this going forward?

A: I'm not sure if I'll be able to describe how I view what is happening in the rural areas. Let us recognize that there is a lot of shift in the way employment is panning out. Let us recognize that migration is now looking at redefining itself, in a way. Many people who went back to the villages with some skills acquired are wondering if they can continue being there and utilizing and benefiting from the skills that they've acquired. Industries too today are allowing a lot of work from home and many who are avoiding traveling are also staying back. So, the shift will have to be recognized, but equally that's not to say people are staying back home without work or staying back and working from there with large companies being established and everywhere else. So, there is a transition happening, undoubtedly. Second, there's also this little savings which is coming through which we are seeing from the various fixed deposits which are growing as different from small savings, you're also seeing some middle class looking at savings through the stock markets, demat accounts and so on. So, the indicators with which we are looking at the rural economy may vary. There are very many newer indicators which we may not want to miss out on. Yes, I agree FMCG segment will also tell us that durable consumables are not being consumed as much as before, yes, I take that as one indicator. But equally, the kinds of activities which are now happening in the rural areas because of better connectivity, other digitization are also yet to be measured.

Q: One thing related to the job market, especially, if you look at campus recruitment in engineering colleges and MBA colleges. So, on one side the economy is doing well, all indicators point to that. On the other hand, the campus recruitment this year has been muted, salaries have been lower, many students have not got a job offer yet. How do you see this in relation to the overall big picture?

A: I am afraid we are repeatedly focusing only on those indicators pertaining to the formal economy, which is important, I am not denying its role. College recruitments, IIM-like campuses are important, but equally the jobs that are getting created in the middle and lower order are not getting counted at all. I will look at the way in which banks and the credit of tech is happening in small and medium businesses, and also the new companies which have got registered. A data which I put out from the Ministry of Corporate Affairs (MCA) is the number of new companies which have started are certainly not by people who are being recruited for jobs. There are people who are investing money believing in their skills, registering a company and probably giving jobs for others. Why would new companies get registered in a bigger number than before if employment is not being offered. The companies cannot operate in vacuum without human beings in them. I think a fairer, open and an exhaustive picture of India's employment both in the formal and non-formal areas will have to have to have some kind of a wider base, and we need to bring in such data so that the discussion can be more informed.

Q: Some of the global slowdown is also having an impact on our jobs, especially at the higher-end, right? At IIM campuses or engineering colleges, etc.

A: Because of the way in which artificial intelligence is coming, the kind of job requirements that are expected of new recruits are also changing. So, the people with old skill sets are now expected to have additional newer skill sets for entering into a certain area, which till now did not exist. So, lots of calibrations are required in understanding this.

Q: Yesterday, in your Budget speech, you were very appreciative of income taxpayers. The number of people paying income tax has gone up, collections are up 2.4 times. You were quite appreciative and in fact I thought you just stopped short of sort of giving them something back because it was a Vote on Account. My question is, salaried people are paying tax a 30% rate today.  Would you would align this in some way or the other in the longer term?

A: The direct taxation reforms are a steady job in the pipeline, and some results have come out and more work is happening. So, direct taxation is something on which - one ease of the taxpayers’ facilitation has to be improved. One of the things that happened in the Budget, one of the ‘serving the customer better’ in the taxation regime happened, but more work can always be done.

Q: So salaried class can be more hopeful in the coming days?

A: I am not saying anything now.

Q: What about food inflation and any plans to rein it in?

A: Food inflation cannot be spoken of as one basket or one item, it has so many different components. We are not self-sufficient; we need to import to meet our demand. And when you depend on imports, the prices are determined by the supplier, not by us. So, when it is pulses or dal where the prices have to be controlled, so much has to be done well in advance. If you know your crop is only x and not what you need, then you pre-plan imports, you have to touch on very many countries to get the imports and so on. And in that, of course, the role of the traders is very important. Second, other seasonal vegetables can equally be affected by drought, or by excess rain, and no amount of import at the last minute can help us if suddenly one crop, say of potatoes or onions or tomatoes, is lost. Last-minute procurement is fraught with difficulties. The treatment for controlling price for pulses, perishable crops or rice are all very different. That is why there is a committee in Government of India which looks into this and makes sure you're able to get those in time. It's an ongoing job. It's not with a deadline, it has to keep happening. And I think largely the committee has been successful, otherwise, we couldn't have been closer to the policy range.

Q: You know, I had interviewed the Prime Minister in 2016 – as early as that -- and he spoke about the white paper; he said that we should come out with the white paper, because we inherited an economy which was in the fragile five. And that was early, just two years into the government and what we had to really do to drag it out of the levels it had reached. You spoke similarly yesterday about the white paper and you said it was a Herculean task to bring the economy back from the brink. What is the idea behind the white paper? Why now? And will it be another stick to beat the opposition with?

A: See, you're right in pointing out that the honourable Prime Minister had spoken about it even in 2016 in your interview. Then, there were so many different sections of society suggesting to us that you better bring a paper out (white paper out) to say why Indian economy has reached the fragile five, to say why a bank said become such a black hole that nothing could be restored of the banks. Banks were all in deep trouble. Look at the number of NPS and the value of the NPS – meaning, what was the original value and to what extent they had reached almost close to valueless positions.

So, whether it was your banks, whether it was the overall economy, whether it was defense procurement, whether it was the vital sector of telecom, why, even minerals, every area was riddled with problems. Now, if you're talking of corruption, well, it's one thing that goes to the court, people get punished and then the money is given back or not given back, values are retrieved or not retrieved. That's one side of the story. But what impact it left on the economy, to restore your banks back to health, to make sure your country is safe, with adequate strategic equipment given to defense personnel, to make sure that your minds -- which are wealth under the earth, meaning inside the earth, under the soil -- to use them for the benefit of the country, rather than using them as an instrument through which you line your own pocket. What implications it had on the economy?  banks not being healthy, mines being given to brothers and sisters, who did not want to extract the mineral for the benefit of the country. Spectrum allocations --  if they had happened in time, I didn't have to spend so much to restore BSNL, to have 2g or 4g in time. And what implication does it have on the country when 4g is not available in time, whereas the whole world is talking about 5g. So, the kind of impact that it had -- the mismanagement -- it is not just talking about policy paralysis for a fragile five, it's talking about every one of these steps, which, number one, was immoral, in the sense it was not right. And equally, the kind of positive effect (if it had happened probably very well, in a transparent fashion) it would have had on the economy. The lost 10 glorious years… to restore it to that position back and then to pull it up, to now get closer to the world's third largest economy is a Herculean task, which I'm grateful this country had a prime minister like Modi ji, who single mindedly said, “I will restore this economy back; it's my service to the nation”. Otherwise, it wouldn't have happened. So why the white paper now? Yes, we've had 10 years. And prior to that there were another 10 years where you saw all this happening. Policy paralysis, corruption, nation losing its endowments, and so on.

Ten years, under Prime Minister Modi, what kind of course corrections had to happen, what kind of restoring confidence had to happen? What kind of pulling back from rut that had to happen? And equally, making sure you're purchasing the equipment, you're removing BSNL from distress, you're making sure BSNL employees are given the due, you're making sure the country gets 5g, not just 4g. Look at the coverage India has in 5g today. All this and to make sure that the investor confidence is not just intact, but is growing -- that within a matter of eight years, I would say, we've reached $596 billion as our foreign exchange reserve. Just compare that with the last 10 years, at least for the sake of the elected honorable representatives who are sitting in the parliament, they should know what was it then, what effort it took to restore it here, and what we should not therefore ever imagine, or dream of doing in personal interest, forgetting the nation. Why now Parliament should know.

Two, at that time had Prime Minister Modi not taken the call that in the interest of our nation, I would not bring it out (He didn't bring out the white paper then)… because you put the nation first.  You say, if I do it now, I can be happy, but the confidence in our country would have been lost. Investors wouldn't have come. Our own people would have lost faith in the systems. They would say ‘oh my god, this government will come, eat away and go, then the next government will come and do its own, but we are all languishing! The faith in institutions, in government, in leaders, in politics would have been lost in the minds of people. And I'm so grateful that the Prime Minister didn't do it. Then he restored it all. Put India on such a wonderful track towards becoming the third largest economy and then, so that all of us know what it took and what we shouldn't do in the future, this paper.

Q: When it comes to the markets Nirmala Sitaraman can do no wrong. Last two-three years, the markets have been on a roll. My question is, can you assure the markets and its participants that there will be stability in the capital gains tax regime? And I ask this question because last year you had tweaked, you know the debt market, the debt mutual funds, in your budget speech? So, is there stability around the corner in the foreseeable future?

A: Policy stability is one thing, which Prime Minister really lays a lot of emphasis on. He doesn't like periodic tweaking, he will tell you it's only two years, it's only three years, let it play out, let it settle down and so on. So, he's never in favour of quick twists and turns. And this is not me saying, people who observe them for his tenure as chief minister will know that the biggest strength under Prime Minister Modi is stability in policy. So that's a single line reply that I can give.

Q: Another question, RBI has imposed restrictions on the operations of Paytm payments bank. I don't want to go into the details, but, what is your message to the FinTech industry? Is there more than meets the eye in this case? Or are we just going to be cautious when it comes to the FinTech sector?

A: No, I wouldn't want to comment on any one particular company. But Fintech is an area in which all of us are very enthusiastic. India has contributed a lot in the sector. India's contribution in the sector has been globally recognized. Today, if people are looking at solutions FinTech solutions, they're looking to India. Our youth have contributed a lot and built capacities for themselves. This is an area which we'd certainly like to work with and encourage. I'm not commenting on a model.

Q: You have been tightening things around. Would you think that the RBI should loosen now?

A: Well, RBI does take its own call, but I will appreciate the RBI for working together with the stakeholders. And they take a call, I'm sure, keeping growth in mind; they've been steady. So, I suppose, they'll continue to be steady is my expectation and hope.

Q: Few quick political questions. We are seeing a different side of Nirmala Sitaraman. You know, in the last few weeks, you you've also been seen as an aggressive politician. You've turned the heat of heat on your rivals in Tamil Nadu. You said that Stalin’s DMK is an anti-Hindu party, and that they were forbidding the live telecast of the Ram Mandir Praan Pratishtha ceremony. What do you have to say to that?

A: 100%, I have not said a loose word. I did mean what I say and I do truly believe that repeatedly, the attack on Hindus in Tamil Nadu -- in layers, which are seen and in layers, which are not seen -- have been felt for a long time. I speak very many times, about Tamil Nadu with lived experiences, and therefore I don't talk too soon, nor do I speak too indiscreetly. So, when I say something, I mean it because I feel it also, I do corroborate with data, with actual ground activities and then only comment. Unfortunately, if that is the politics of a state party, which has had a lot of ideological support extended to separatist politicians of years gone by -- whether they support it even today, I do not know -- but there are periodic voices which come out which are very separatist in tone and tenor. My grief is a national party like the Congress Party has been decimated in Tamil Nadu and till today, they are not in a position to win an election -- even a couple of seats on their own -- without being in alliance with one of these parties. BJP is of course a beginner there. It's been there since the Jan Sangh days and it's gaining strength… We'll continue to work with the people. But the grief that I want to expresses a national party like Congress Party also joins that anti Hindu voice, does not condemn the anti-Hindu voice of DMK. And even worse, goes in support of such voices which come from DMK. And not just in Tamil Nadu, a Congress Party member in the Lok Sabha today (meaning he is a sitting Lok Sabha member and a brother of a deputy chief minister in Karnataka) also speaks in separatist voice. So, anti-Hindu is one and anti- Hindu activity is another, which also is happening in Karnataka incidentally. Congress Party in Tamil Nadu supports these kinds of anti-Hindu or separatist voices. And today that is a spirit with which Congress also is aligning, which is what I find utterly shocking.

Q: Is there an attempt to paint the Bharatiya Janta party as a North Indian party and you know, that this North- South divide, they’ve been encouraging that. Is there an instance?

A: They’ve always called Bharatiya Janta party two things -- It is a Brahmin Baniya party & It's a Hindi party. Today the kind of support BJP receives from South India disproves all this. I don't want to name individuals and say oh, he or she belongs to this caste, we promoted this caste and therefore… More than the BJP, I can challenge today, is there any one party in India which has worked for the betterment of tribals in India, which has worked for the betterment of the Dalits/ scheduled castes in India, which has recalled some of the best iconic leaders coming from those communities but attaining national stature, whether it is Dr BR Ambedkar whether it is Guruji and considered like God himself ‘Birsa Munda’, whether it is the sons of the Sahabzade or the Sikh gurus who gave their lives in their teenage for the sake of our country. So in any one of these, I want to ask is there any one party in this country, which has as much served as the BJP? So what is Hindi party? When the Prime Minister of India is talking about all languages, he quotes Thiruvalluvar, Purananuru. Every given opportunity, he takes the languages even to the UN.

So, Tamil Nadu’s politics -- speaking of these kinds of things, has happily kept the Hindi speaking parts of the country, even if they are in alliance with them, away from the separatist rhetoric. So, you think, oh, we are an alliance with the party, they cannot do any wrong. But they've been speaking on these separatist lines earlier. They have speaking anti-Hindu earlier. Only because of the language gap -- just as they didn't want to learn Hindi, many of the North Indians didn't want to learn Tamil. So, there has never been an understanding… a comprehensive, complete understanding of what's developed in Tamil Nadu.

Q: So are you hopeful that the BJP will do better this time in South India? I mean, how many seats do you see them getting out of 131 seats?

A: It's difficult to talk about number of seats, but I'm sure (about) the efforts which are being made by Tamil Nadu BJP unit.

Q: So, are you likely to open your account in these states like Tamil Nadu, Andhra Pradesh and Kerala? 

A: We will certainly work for the people and hope to have these things... whether it's Kerala or Tamil Nadu, lots of work is happening, and people are responding as well.

Q: Are you likely to contest elections?

A: I don't think. It's my party's decision.

Q: One last question on 2024 general elections: What is your assessment? How many seats do you think the BJP is looking at?

A: I am not going to speculate on the number of seats...I think people will see the truth and commitment and dedication with which the honorable Prime Minister has been working. They are blessing him, they are seeing his earnestness. They are seeing how non-stop he puts the people of India and the nation first among everything else. So, I'm confident.

Q: The opposition has constantly been crying themselves hoarse about the use of intelligence agencies, whether it is Arvind Kejriwal or Mamata Banerjee is leaders in West Bengal, or Hemant Soren more recently. They complained that there is harassment by central investigative agencies. And if the leaders jump onto the other side and join the BJP, then they are let go scot free. What do you have to say?

A: First of all, many of the cases in which the CBI or the enforcement directorate or the income tax pursue cases cannot come to the level of asking for custodial or asking for interrogation or arrest can happen overnight. You will be surprised in many of these cases, they were originally filed during UPA times. Many of these cases belong to that era. You know, the Indian system, the level and the time consumed for each stage to mature and to reach a stage where summons are being served. it consumes a lot of time and many of these are from that era case. So, it's not as if we've done. Second, a survey or a search happens, tell me if they've come empty-handed. Rooms full of cash. Equally when we're talking about common man adopting to technology doing digital payment, you have people sitting with tons of currency notes in their homes. Nowadays, everything is videographed. I can't sit here and say I found so much cash in your house without a proof. The video shows in the bathroom, in the bedroom in lockers, tons of cash being kept. What explains that? So it's very well to use that as a whip to hit at the ruling party to say you're using the enforcement directorate or CBI. These are professional agencies. They take huge time to make their cases compact and ready. Because everything is now monitored by the court once the chargesheet is filed. And you have to submit the documents to the court, you can't just go there and say I found this I found that as records prove it. So era is changing. People don't like to have corrupt leaders. So, when the enforcement directorate go and knock at the doors and come out with such pictures. common people are saying it. You may cry hoarse, as you said, saying it is being politically used. I'm sorry, it is something which was case from your era. You filed a case against your own ally. There are partners in crime. And then there are partners and enemies also.