Women's Day 2023 | You may get in boards for wrong reasons, but do stay in for the right reasons: Manisha Girotra

"When we stop seeing a woman's job as just a job, when we start seeing her aspirations as important as that of a man, is when people will stay on in their careers, especially i-banking, which as you know can be very hard." That's Manisha Girotra, CEO, Moelis India and former CEO, UBS India in a free-wheeling, hard-hitting chat with Moneycontrol's Ashwin Mohan.

Girotra shares her journey, challenges and lessons during a stellar three-decade career of marquee deals like the $12-billion Vodafone-Hutch deal, the $6-billion Novelis-Hindalco deal or in recent times the $2.8-billion Birla Group- Aleris deal.

She opened up on tackling bias, bullies, boys clubs , boardrooms and much more.

Edited excerpts:

You're a role model for several working women professionals and a women's rights champion. What do you make of this year's theme for International Women's Day, which is 'Embracing Equity'? One needs to keep in mind that women come from different backgrounds and, therefore, one needs to keep those factors in mind before deciding the unique set of support systems that each of them need to succeed. How would you look at that theme in the context of domestic deal making?

Manisha Girotra: I think it's really relevant today, especially given where the world has moved to. We need to have mindsets and practices that actually encourage inclusiveness and equality. When I started my career, it was difficult for women to work in a lot of industries, manufacturing especially, because it was not safe to go to a lot of towns, cities, etc. In today's world where technology basically helps you and pretty much (gives) access to any sector as a woman, we still aren't seeing enough women. Look at the startup sector itself. There is no barrier to entry for a woman, but how many women do we see? And really, it comes from the fact that women founders get far less access to equity than their male counterparts. And that really comes from the unconscious bias that a woman suffers from. There is a mindset that if there is a male, if he's an engineer, if he comes from a middle-class background, he (and the potential investor are) like-minded… Basically, the investor looks for commonality and goes and invests in that company.

So the woman gets dealt out without even having started out, so to say. I think that mindsets need to change. And that's what we're fighting. We are fighting patriarchy at home that then spills over to work. So I think a lot of that needs to change for women to be taken more seriously in every industry, whether it's investment banking, tech, manufacturing. Women are trying hard. They're investing in education, but I think they're getting dealt out because of these unconscious biases, which basically work against them and can be very detrimental psychologically for women, who get frustrated and opt out.

I am reminded of a quote by former Chinese Communist Party leader Mao Zedong, who once said that 'women hold up half the sky', referring to the need for women to come out of the domestic households and enter several professions. Now, interestingly, that quote finds a prominent place in your LinkedIn profile, which says 'Women hold up half the sky, it's time we own half the world'. Are you satisfied with the participation of women in investment banking in India? Do you think they are being taken more seriously today than perhaps in earlier decades? And what more needs to be done to have more Manisha Girotras who are at the top leading i- banks and calling the shots?

Manisha Girotra: I think my quote was referencing more than just investment banking. It was basically that women just don't have equal access to, let's say, real estate, to wealth that men have. Look at even the digital economy. Women today have less than 40 percent access to the internet, less than 35 percent of women have access to smartphones. In a digital economy where your smartphone and internet is your tool for job creation, women don't have that. So basically, as women, we just don't have the right tools. And this used to happen in the past when there was no land in your name, there was no real estate in your name. And as you know, the most important criterion for gender equality is financial inclusion.

If I have a seat on the table, if I have a say on financial matters, that’s when I get respect in the family. And not having access to these instruments, these tools—real estate, wealth—is basically what creates this unfair access for women and unfair treatment of women. So that really was what the context of that quote was. It was more than investment banking. It was that look, you need to basically equip women with tools so that they can come out there and perform and earn their own space. In investment banking, I think at the entry level, we're fast solving the supply issue, as I said. A lot of firms, whether it's investment banking or private equity, are trying to at least make sure that there is a 60:40 male to female ratio at the entry level. So I think that funnel is getting sorted.

I think where we're losing out is at the mid-level, where the male income gets better or the children come along or the parents and the in-laws are ageing, the woman is basically asked to step behind. And really, the problem is that a woman's career is not seen as a career, it's just a job. It's a job which is there for financial increment of the family or seen as, "Oh, let her go and pass some time before the babies come," etc. So I think when we stop seeing a woman's job as just a job, when we start seeing her aspirations as important as that of a man, is when people will stay on in their careers, especially investment banking, which as you know can be very hard. It's long hours. If there's a live deal, M&A deal, you don't have weekends, you have to travel. You have red eyes. You have to travel at short notice, whenever clients want to meet. That needs support from the whole family if you want to take on a career like that. And that's really where I think women are stepping out. We're not seeing enough come through the funnel and that's really the biggest frustration despite a lot of these flexi hours, work-from-home.

The pandemic taught us a lot of that, that you can support women in that way. And a lot of organisations are doing that. But I think we're still not seeing them spill out of the funnel because of the simple reason that we have a patriarchal mindset towards a woman's job

In an earlier interview to Vogue magazine, you've spoken about how in your early days as an i-banker you faced blatant sexism and bias. There are several incidents that you quoted, for example, many felt that you were there just to get a good CV till you got married. Despite you heading the team, some people chose to speak only to your male colleagues. There's one particular incident that really shocked me—during an overseas roadshow, you were actually asked or told to iron a male colleague's suit. That's absolutely shocking and abysmal. My question is, and this is something that many of our young women readers would also like to know, what was your coping mechanism? And how did you also not allow that level of toxicity to affect you and also give a very strong signal that you are in for the long run?

Manisha Girotra: I think there's no easy answer. It was tough, because especially when I started off, you didn't have organisations with HR, etc., where you could actually go and discuss these things. There wasn't that awareness of the fact that it's good to retain women in the workforce. You were pretty much seen as an outsider and you had to make the male counterparts and male bosses and male ecosystem believe that you're here for good. So you couldn't really go and talk about the challenges you're facing openly to anyone because then it would be seen as a weakness. It was very hard in the initial few years. When I look back, I think those were the hardest years because, as you said, it's very difficult to get a punch on your chin every day, and then come back and say, "Look, fine, I'm knocked out, but I'm going to come back." I think I learned the hard way.

A lot of times, I was pretty much the pizza girl and the coffee girl for the office, because it was seen as a waste of energy and effort to invest in getting me to really understand cash flow modelling, etc., because I was going to go away in two, three years. I think six, eight months into doing this, I just pushed back. I said, "I am not going to do this." And I said it to the one person especially who would really make me do these errands, "Look, there is an office boy. They're there for this reason."

I think that's the thing with bullies. And with people who come with a patriarchal mindset, they don't even think that what they're asking for is wrong. So you need to push back and tell them, "Look, this is not acceptable." And I think four out of five times, people do understand that they have pushed the envelope a lot. So I pushed back and while I say this today, at that time, it was very hard because you're worried endlessly on what implications this will have for you.  But I think I decided at one point that, look, I haven't come into this job to just pick up coffee cups and bring pizza. So if they don't want me, then I will just quit.

So after a lot of agonizing, I learned how to push back on the kinds of comments you mentioned, on the kind of errands you mentioned, and just the triviality that I was subjected to. It took a long time. It was work in progress. But somewhere along the line, just by trial and error, I learnt… As you said, a lot of time a lot of male clients wouldn't even make eye contact with me. So over the years, I started going with just a female team…and then they were forced to at least look at one of us. I just left the guys out.

You got married at the young age of 24 to a fellow i-banker, Sanjay Agarwal. Tell me, since both of you would have clearly had busy routines as dealmakers, did that perhaps facilitate better understanding and balancing of your professional and personal priorities? A lot of women struggle to maintain or find that perfect balance. It's really tough because there's always so much more expected from a woman than a man in a marriage.

Manisha Girotra: Look, when I was younger, I used to think the fact that we are both investment bankers really helps because he understands what demands my work has, the fact that I need to work on weekends, the fact that I have to take a redeye. I think that's important. I have a family full of doctors, and the fact that both husband and wife are doctors helped when suddenly in the middle of the night, there was a call for surgery. So I think having commonality in careers helps. But I think more than that, having commonality in mindsets is more important because today's careers are so different, right? Your spouse can be a gig worker. You could be working for a hardnosed investment bank or a tech company.

I think what's most important is to find a spouse who basically respects your career too, respects the fact that you want to make something of your life. You want to be the hero of your own life. And I think if you can find a spouse who respects that, that's the most important thing, irrespective of what segment each one of you works in. But yes, in my case, I think the fact that we are both investment bankers helped. It had its own challenges too, because we both had sometimes the same conflicts and same meetings, rushed to take the same flights, so that posed challenges. But I think somewhere commonality of purpose also helped.

On a lighter note, did you guys ever land up for the same pitch for a deal?

Manisha Girotra: Yeah, maybe in the early years. Now the market is big enough. When I started, it was a pond. And a lot of it was government disinvestment and privatisation. That's what investment banking was all about… I don't think we were directly in confrontation with each other. But yeah, I'm sure we have competed in the past.

How did motherhood change you as a professional? How did you juggle your schedule and also cater to the needs of your daughter? Motherhood is a paradigm shift, right?

Manisha Girotra: Yeah, I think so. I think it really challenges you in every way. You basically have to multitask, you play with guilt. Because don't forget, in the Indian context or in any context, the woman's first report card is that of a nurturer and a caregiver. So the first thing I'm evaluated on by women who are my peers or by my family is how good a mom, how good of a homemaker am I. So I think (a) it was just that pressure, (b) was my own guilt since I was born to a mum who was just a perfect mum and a perfect homemaker. So I wanted to replicate that in my life too. And of course, the challenges of running UBS at that point. So I think it was just juggling constantly. I think somewhere I neglected myself as a person. Something has to give and I think what I neglected the most was me time, that was just not on the table. It was either constantly working or looking after my child or doing something with the home.

I think I just became like a robot programmed to just continuously work. It's challenging. As you said, you have to create an ecosystem around you. I was lucky that I'm born to a family that was very supportive. I got married into a family where everyone was a career woman. So my mother-in-law was supportive. My husband used to call them mums-on-wheels because they were flying in from Delhi at short notice when Sanjay and I had to travel. So I think that helped. You need to have a system of nannies, of neighbours, of friends, of parents. It does really take a village to bring up a child. And that's what happened in my case that I had this ecosystem of friends and family which supported us. But at the end of the day, the buck stops with you and the first few years are very challenging.

And I think any woman who handles motherhood and a career like investment banking just needs to be very resilient. And there will be challenges, there will be tough times. But I think what you need to remember is that these things pass. Kids get unwell, kids get better, kids learn how to do their homework on their own, kids learn that they don't have the best tiffins while going to school like some of the other stay-at-home mums do. They all survive. So I think you need to just tell yourself that and not burn yourself out with guilt.

You are on the global board of Naspers, you are also a board member of Ashok Leyland, Mindspace Business Parks. Now, as you're aware, the Securities and Exchange Board of India has been pushing India Inc to have more representation in terms of more women directors on the board. What's been your personal experience? Are Indian boards willing to listen to women directors when it comes to suggestions on a critical aspect involving the company? Or do the men on these boards perhaps need to be much better listeners?

Manisha Girotra: As you said, I'm on the board of Naspers. In the past, I was on the board of this French company. I think in these companies about 40 percent to 50 percent of the board is women. It's a very, very gender-equal board. So there, I didn't see any of the hurdles. I think in India, initially, when I joined the boards, I think there was a huge resistance as to how the woman is going to contribute, because especially if you're joining old-economy companies which are commercial vehicle manufacturers, steel, oil and gas, the mindset was, "Do women even understand this industry?" So I think there, as I always say to all my women counterparts who are aspiring to join the boards, that you may get in for the wrong reasons, but do stay in for the right reasons.

You may be getting in because regulation wants you to get in. But after that, the onus is on you. Read up, invest in yourself, ask the questions, don't sit shyly in a corner. Women tend to not speak up as much as men. I've always encouraged women who want to join the boards, look, ask the questions, don't be embarrassed. Maybe one or two questions are wrong. That doesn't matter. A lot of the male directors also ask questions which are wrong. As board members, you're not meant to know everything. So ask the questions, be confident and then stay in for the right reasons.

And I hear from a lot of companies where we've got clients who had such good favorable experiences with women that they're actually wanting to go above that one mandatory board director, and I know of many companies such as Marico, etc., who already have two, there are some who have three, Novartis. So I think there the onus is as much on the woman because, you're right, the mindset is this is not somebody who's going to be naturally understanding this business. Do we even take what she says seriously? A lot of women have said to me that even when they have spoken up, they haven't been taken seriously. But look, keep pushing, and at some point, you will win the credibility and the respect that you deserve.

Has the so-called 'boys' club' in the world of deals and India Inc become a little more receptive, a little more accommodative compared to earlier years?

Manisha Girotra: Yeah, I think so, somewhat better. Would I like it to be much better? Yes. I think the patriarchal mindsets at home do spill over to work… But I think today the younger women are really confident out there, aware of their rights, pushing forward. And I have great hope in these women if they stick on. The issue really, as we discussed before, is that you need the funnel to be stronger and you need to support these women through the years when the kids are young and in the mid-30s when they drop out. But if they stay, I think these women are so much more confident. The organisations are so much more aware of diversity, things like flexi hours, etc., have become a way of life, that I'm hopeful that 10, 15 years from now, we won't have a conversation like this. Wishful thinking, but I'm hoping for that.

Let's shift focus and speak about deal activity. We've had a sort of a sluggish start to 2023. Equity capital markets really haven't taken off. We haven't seen a big IPO launch in a long time. Usually, you see many IPO launches post the budget, that hasn't happened. What are some of the key deal trends you expect to pan out in the rest of the calendar year? Recently, there was a report by Deloitte that was optimistic. It said that they expect deal activity, especially M&As, to be robust in India, because many foreign companies are keen to increase their domestic presence. What's your take?

Manisha Girotra: It's unprecedented global activity that we're seeing in terms of whether it's Ukraine-Russia, whether it's inflation, whether it's the European slowdown, China… I think all of those aspects led to so much uncertainty that people were just scared to deploy capital. Private equity today has a trillion dollars of capital, but they aren't deploying it because there just isn't leverage available, and you know if leverage isn't available, the returns don't stack up, especially at the kind of valuations emerging markets like India have. But I think as we're seeing the worst over in inflation, you're seeing the US economy stabilise. My view is that in the second half, you will see private equity come in and deploy capital. Sovereign wealth funds have continued to deploy capital. They are deploying large capital and they'll continue to do that. Private equity needs to come back.

So I think in the second half, you should see more deal activity, inbound deal activity. The second thing which is already playing out and will continue to play out is domestic consolidation. A lot of companies are seeing stress, whether it's in the tech sector or some other sectors, and basically, you will see either the large-caps consolidate these players or they will consolidate amongst themselves because otherwise they run the risk of perishing.

The third, as you know, the outbound continues. The outbound doesn't continue like it did in the past, very large transactions for scale. I think what it continues for is for certain niche segments or niche expertise, trends, which IT services and pharma companies will continue to do. So I think you'll see outbound and you won't see like the outbound we saw earlier, which is, you know, looking for global dominance, etc. Because the Indian economy is big enough. It's a $5-trillion economy and all the large conglomerates are saying we'd rather spend dollars in India and grow and scale here. But I think you'll continue to see outbound in those specific areas of IT, tech, pharma. I think these three themes will play out.

I will quickly slip in a rapid-fire round. So if you're ready, should I shoot?

Manisha Girotra: I'm not ready, but let's try it!

All right, here goes. And there are five of them. Which past or present woman dealmaker do you look up to and why?

Manisha Girotra: Well, unfortunately, and very depressingly, I didn't have role models when I started. I think today I admire Jane Fraser, the CEO of Citi—for a British woman to come out there and be the CEO of a large US Bank is very admirable.

If Manisha Girotra was not an investment banker, she would be…?

Manisha Girotra: If you’d asked me this question in my 20s, I would have said a professor or a pilot. Today, I would say I'm passionate about educating the girl child, so I would just like to go and set up schools in Himachal where I come from and scale those up.

Your favourite track which you love humming?

Manisha Girotra: Nowadays I like the Shershaah song, "Rata Lambiya."

Manisha Girotra's idea of a favourite meal at her favourite holiday destination?

Manisha Girotra: My favourite holiday destination is Shimla where I came from. I grew up there and there is a coffee house called Indian Coffee House which was set up in 1957. It's colonial style and serves the best coffee and dosa. So every time I'm low or I have lost a deal or something's gone wrong, I think about Indian Coffee House and I have filter coffee there.

I know you're an avid golfer, your hubby and your daughter are tennis fans, so there are a lot of sports fans in the family. Your most memorable moment as a golf player or golf fan?

Manisha Girotra: I think my favourite moments of golf are being a caddie to my father in Naldehra Golf Course at the age of five. He used to take me in the snow and I had to carry that whole bag even though I was a kid, and he would make me go look for the balls. I was always scared that there would be a tiger or a lion coming because it was Shimla. The woods are so thick. There were no tigers or lions. But as a kid, I was scared, but it was also a thrill. I don't think I've ever had a more thrilling time than that just being a caddie to my father.