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Tracked by: 6 Boarders
Hi sambala,
Actually i am getting confused by these arguments
First GOI said the bridge is not man made,creation of nature
Now the say it is built By Ram and subsequently partially destroyed
Now the point is
1 If Ram partially destroyed,
Is it not still heritage?
We have many monuments in the country which are partially fallen due to time and GSI has taken custody
2 1838 British ruled India,they may not have the sentiment
still they did not destroy it totally
The govt should have stuck to their original argument--It is a natural formation
GOI is getting in to rat trap with their argument...
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by :
sambala
Ramar Sethu is not an integral part of Hindu religion: Centre
New Delhi: Even as it awaits the R.K. Pachauri committee report on an alternative route for the Sethusamudram Ship Channel Project, the Centre has reiterated in the Supreme Court that Ramar Sethu is not an integral part of Hindu religion requiring protection under Articles 25 and 26 of the Constitution (dealing with right to freedom of religion).
The court, while reserving verdict on July 30 on the petitions filed by Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy and others challenging the implementation of the Sethusamudram project by demolishing Adam’s Bridge (Ramar Sethu), asked the parties to file written submissions. The court said the judgment would be pronounced after the experts panel submitted its report. Accordingly, the Centre filed its written submissions.
Response to petitioners
The Centre said: “Ramar Sethu does not form an integral or essential part of Hindu religion. A religious belief or practice which is not an essential and integral part of the religion is not protected by Articles 25 and 26.” This was in response to the petitioners’ argument that the destruction of Ramar Sethu would cause irreparable damage to Hindus’ religious sentiments.
Referring to the argument by senior counsel K. Parasaran (for one of the petitioners) that Ramar Sethu could not be touched as it was sacred, the Centre said: “The religious texts relied [upon] by him themselves showed that the bridge had been built and had been broken by Lord Rama himself.” Mr. Parasaran had also argued that anything broken could not be worshipped.
The Centre said the petitioner did not prove that Lord Rama himself did not break the bridge. “Nor has it been established that whatever remains of Ramar Sethu as a place of worship is an essential and integral part of the Hindu religion.”
Quoting Gazetteer of Southern India 1855, the Centre said that after returning from Sri Lanka upon His victory over Ravana, Lord Rama “took his heavy bow and with it made several breaches in the bridge so wide that nobody could pass over it on foot.”
Seeking dismissal of the petitions, the Centre said geological evidence “shows that this gap was once a bridge and it was breached during the violent storms in 1480. Operations for removing the obstacles in the channel and for deepening and widening it were begun in 1838.”
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
GUEST COWARDS DONT COME WITH A ID
thoughts of general interest n public interests can be discussed fruitfully if ur in open
if u have fear dont write...
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : Guest
learn to practise what u preach......
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
Christians, SC/STs uphold conversion as constitutional right
NEW DELHI: Upholding conversion as a constitutional right, a group of Christian and SC and ST leaders have said that depriving this right will have grave consequences and demanded a ban on VHP and Bajrang Dal.
Taking away the right to convert will have grave consequences," said noted Christian leader John Dayal, who is a member of the National Integration Council.
"How can you stop from listening to your conscience? I was a Christian, then a non-believer Marxist for 25 years and now I am Christian again," said Dayal, on the occasion of World Religious Freedom Day, and called for a ban on saffron groups like VHP and Bajrang Dal.
Members of the All India Federation of Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribes also demanded their right to conversion under the constitution.
President of Indian Justice Party and chairman of SC/ST Confederation, Udit Raj, said, "I have no right to convert but we have right to get converted."
"Communalism is a threat. But caste politics is bigger threat that affects us indirectly. It outweighs itself on development, education and encourages corruption," said Raj.
In a joint statement issued by Archbishop of the Delhi Diocese Vincent Concessao, Dayal and St Stephens` College Principal Valson Thampu, the leaders also sought stern action against the assassins of Hindu preacher Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati and enactment of Communal Violence Bill.
"Conversion is a human right that is guaranteed by the Constitution. Accusations of forced conversion is part of a strategy that is repeated time and again," Concessao said.
Seeking reservations for Christian Dalits and Christian tribals, Thampu said a commission like the Justice Sachar committee be formed to assess the development status of the Christian community.
The Times of India
...
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : sambala
Ramar Sethu is not an integral part of Hindu religion: Centre
New Delhi: Even as it awaits the R.K. Pachauri committee report on an alternative route for the Sethusamudram Ship Channel Project, the Centre has reiterated in the Supreme Court that Ramar Sethu is not an integral part of Hindu religion requiring protection under Articles 25 and 26 of the Constitution (dealing with right to freedom of religion).
The court, while reserving verdict on July 30 on the petitions filed by Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy and others challenging the implementation of the Sethusamudram project by demolishing Adam’s Bridge (Ramar Sethu), asked the parties to file written submissions. The court said the judgment would be pronounced after the experts panel submitted its report. Accordingly, the Centre filed its written submissions.
Response to petitioners
The Centre said: “Ramar Sethu does not form an integral or essential part of Hindu religion. A religious belief or practice which is not an essential and integral part of the religion is not protected by Articles 25 and 26.” This was in response to the petitioners’ argument that the destruction of Ramar Sethu would cause irreparable damage to Hindus’ religious sentiments.
Referring to the argument by senior counsel K. Parasaran (for one of the petitioners) that Ramar Sethu could not be touched as it was sacred, the Centre said: “The religious texts relied [upon] by him themselves showed that the bridge had been built and had been broken by Lord Rama himself.” Mr. Parasaran had also argued that anything broken could not be worshipped.
The Centre said the petitioner did not prove that Lord Rama himself did not break the bridge. “Nor has it been established that whatever remains of Ramar Sethu as a place of worship is an essential and integral part of the Hindu religion.”
Quoting Gazetteer of Southern India 1855, the Centre said that after returning from Sri Lanka upon His victory over Ravana, Lord Rama “took his heavy bow and with it made several breaches in the bridge so wide that nobody could pass over it on foot.”
Seeking dismissal of the petitions, the Centre said geological evidence “shows that this gap was once a bridge and it was breached during the violent storms in 1480. Operations for removing the obstacles in the channel and for deepening and widening it were begun in 1838.”
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
Ramar Sethu is not an integral part of Hindu religion: Centre
New Delhi: Even as it awaits the R.K. Pachauri committee report on an alternative route for the Sethusamudram Ship Channel Project, the Centre has reiterated in the Supreme Court that Ramar Sethu is not an integral part of Hindu religion requiring protection under Articles 25 and 26 of the Constitution (dealing with right to freedom of religion).
The court, while reserving verdict on July 30 on the petitions filed by Janata Party president Subramanian Swamy and others challenging the implementation of the Sethusamudram project by demolishing Adam’s Bridge (Ramar Sethu), asked the parties to file written submissions. The court said the judgment would be pronounced after the experts panel submitted its report. Accordingly, the Centre filed its written submissions.
Response to petitioners
The Centre said: “Ramar Sethu does not form an integral or essential part of Hindu religion. A religious belief or practice which is not an essential and integral part of the religion is not protected by Articles 25 and 26.” This was in response to the petitioners’ argument that the destruction of Ramar Sethu would cause irreparable damage to Hindus’ religious sentiments.
Referring to the argument by senior counsel K. Parasaran (for one of the petitioners) that Ramar Sethu could not be touched as it was sacred, the Centre said: “The religious texts relied [upon] by him themselves showed that the bridge had been built and had been broken by Lord Rama himself.” Mr. Parasaran had also argued that anything broken could not be worshipped.
The Centre said the petitioner did not prove that Lord Rama himself did not break the bridge. “Nor has it been established that whatever remains of Ramar Sethu as a place of worship is an essential and integral part of the Hindu religion.”
Quoting Gazetteer of Southern India 1855, the Centre said that after returning from Sri Lanka upon His victory over Ravana, Lord Rama “took his heavy bow and with it made several breaches in the bridge so wide that nobody could pass over it on foot.”
Seeking dismissal of the petitions, the Centre said geological evidence “shows that this gap was once a bridge and it was breached during the violent storms in 1480. Operations for removing the obstacles in the channel and for deepening and widening it were begun in 1838.”
...
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : sambala
This is not the first time that Mr Ghai and his inter-faith group, the Anglo Asian Friendship Society, has traded blows with the authorities in Newcastle. in 2006, the body of Rajpal Mehat, a 31-year-old illegal immigrant, was found in a canal outside Slough in west London. There was very little to identify the man other than a mobile phone with Mr Ghai`s number in it. With his help police were able to identify the man and handed the body over to his family in India, who had been flown to the UK by the society. Unable to afford the costs of transporting the body to India, Mr Ghai decided to hold the first open-air cremation in more than 70 years on a secret location in Northumberland. "The only people left were his mother and daughter," he said. "They were deeply worried about the condition of his soul. So with the help of local Sikhs and Hindus we burned him outdoors."
Having initially given a go-ahead to the rite police ended up investigating the cremation and passed a file to the CPS; the case was dropped because it was not in the public interest.
Andrew Singh Dogan, a former barrister who acts as legal co-ordinator for the society, believes Mr Ghai`s fight mirrors that of William Price, a Welshman who successfully campaigned for the legalisation of cremations at the end of the 19th century.
"it took a while for Britain to accept the idea of cremations but nowadays we live in a society where more people are cremated than buried," he said. "I think once people understand what really happens during an open-air cremation they`ll realise there is nothing to fear. We will come to accept them just like we learnt to accept normal cremations. it`s not like we want to put some pyre on the banks of the Tyne, we`d find a space that is wholly private and away from public eyes where people who want to grieve next to the body of their loved ones can do so."
Other supporters believe resistance to the open-air cremations is purely conceptual. "in the Abrahamic faiths fire is something you associate with hell," said Dr Anand, one of Mr Ghai`s followers who recently lost his son and was deeply upset about having to cremate his body in a crematorium. "[Fire] is seen as a punishment and I think that`s why many Westerners prefer not to see the actual cremation. But for us fire is something pure, it cleanses and renews. There is hardly a single Hindu ceremony that doesn`t at some point use agni [sacred fire], which acts as a conduit between man and God."
One of the difficulties Mr Ghai`s followers face is resistance from leaders within their own community. Sikh and Hindu faith groups have been reluctant to show their support for his legal battle. The Hindu Academy has called open-air cremations an "antiquated practice" whilst the Hindu Council has also said that it does not support outdoor pyres. Only the Hindu Forum of Britain has made statements in support of the idea. its secretary general, Ramesh Kallidai, said: "Those who wish to exercise this choice of open-air funeral pyres in order to feel that they have done their religious obligation for their parents should be allowed, provided two conditions are fulfilled: that it does not break any law in this country and that it does not endanger anybody else in the vicinity in terms of health and safety."
Mr Ghai said that enough Hindus and Sikhs in Britain believe that open-air cremations are a vital part of their religion. "I believe a person should be able to live according to their religious beliefs and that we should accommodate that as long as it does not harm others," he said. "I cannot see how open air cremations in a private place away from the public gaze could harm anyone."
Tracked by: 0 Boarder
The fight between two powerful ladies has just begun and becomes interesting during this election year....
Mayavati,the cm of UP stopped the rail coach factory which is set to open by sonia gandhi,UPA chair person,ofcourse the court given stay on this govt order.... to stop sonia`s rally she imposed 144 section raebareli.... but sonia ignores the govt rules and went through raebareli on a road show....in the tour sonia stated with angry that she is ready to go jail and nobody can stop her coming to her relatives` place, and thus given open chalenge to maya.... so, sonia is in aggressive mood and counter lady maya is gone under defensive mode,atlest for now....
If sonia goes to jail,who will canvas for congress party in coming elections.......
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
HI morningstar,
My intention of this post is not to prove who is right? and the wrong
Why some dalits converted to Christianity?
Most did for self esteem and, anger that they did not get in Hinduism
But many are disappointed,Reason--Discrimination,from which they want to escape
Why the terminology "Dalit christian" it self?
It can be Christian either Catholic/Protestant etc
(My friend tells me in west when the say Christian it mean catholic
I am open to correction)
There are many representation from Dalit Christians to the
Higher up in the theology and even to Vatican
I am not blaming any religion
But it is the people (we Indians)
Which ever religion we belong,we always create sub sect
There are many Dalits converted to Islam
Do they call themselves "Dalit Muslim" ?
Seldom they do
The Muslim community as a whole oppose to suggestion made by some
politician (vote bank)reservation For dalit convert Muslim
The reason---They feel the community will get divided
But dalit Christians want reservation,why?
So no point in blaming any religion per say,but the people who think
they are the custodians of the religion,these are the bad apples
I am also Indian first
Regds
GV...
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : morningstar
Why are you bothered about 150 years from here on........the world may perish much before that due to its own idiocy!!!
Why dont you try going on a reconversion spree with your values and strengths and see for yourself??
Life is tough buddy in the tribal regions. It is easy to speak about scriptures, religion, vedas et al, but there is requirement of individuals who would really do the act!! One such example is Mthr Theresa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now don`t tell me that she was after conversion or one freak author wrote some articles or book against her. This is peanuts compared to the service she has granted to society.........you believe it or not!!
If you are in Mumbai try to get to a place called Shanti Avedna Ashram located near Shah Rukhs bungalow (Bandra) and see what service the nuns give to the underpriviliged and sick (CA patients) without consideration to caste, creed, or economical status????????
You are simply barking around with info from the net????
It is wonderful that you believe in an eye for an eye........please carry on propogate your mantra and this will augur well for the world and for India!!!!!!!
Why should the so called Christians convert uneducated and downtrodden, sick, unattended tribals????? Why are they so hungry for love and affection??? Now dont tell me it is for this and that!!!
Keep your paper faiths and values to yourself and get into the tribal areas of Kandmahal and see the problems for yourself. I assume from your views you are a paper worm???
Please do understand nobody from the Catholic Church is interested in conversions. Or else the population of catholics would have increased by leaps and bounds!!
Please please shun away the mistaken faith of forcible or even voluntary conversions of other faiths to Catholicism????
Catholics are not interested in conversions, but individuals like you want a reason for the macabre violence that has been unleashed in the country............this is not acceptable. Come out with some valid and proven reasons to prove your point.
As I told you I am not a staunch religion follower. I am an Indian first!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers!!
=morningstar=
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
Why bring mother Teresa into it. She was an angel and not a worm like u, paper or otherwise, messaging only on behalf of color eyed christians . Tomorrow u may even say that the Mangalore catholic clergy had never said that New Life was the one doing all the mischief and creating interfaith problems too OR u may claim that too is from the internet. If u can get such sites a dime a dozen why dont u get one and counter all that is said in dalitchristiansdotcom instead of trying to make me out a worm like u and in the same breath claiming that u r not a staunch religion follower but ur underlying bias being plainly visible.
And dont tell me that the christian popln would have increased in leaps and bounds if there were conversion. u lack the necessary knowledge. First find out what was the christian popln in orissa some decades ago and what it is now. It was less than 1% and now it is nearly 10%. mind u percentage terms not in absolute terms.period.
First get ur facts right. Yes on all india basis it is reported to have declined. So why is the census report not published. Let me enlighten u in this regard. It is not published bec both hindu and christian percentage has gone down and muslim percentage has gone up.But that is another issue. But does it mean that in ABSOLUTE TERMS that there are less number of christians now and less number of hindus now than earlier.No.Accordingly it does not prove that conversion is not going on. In the northeast it will decline faster in percentage terms due to the influx of bangladeshis . The only percentage that will constantly move upwards is the muslim one for obvious reasons.
And dont tell me that u r unaware of the information around two decades ago of the vaticans target that so many lakh churches should be established in indias villages. The news was immediately suppressed. Now tell me that i know only internet and newspapers. Why do u ask me why should the so called christians convert anyone? Ask the vatican who decided it and who set the targets. Is it ur case that u r saying what is divinely ordained? why dont u ask the kerala clergy why they wanted christians to stop family planning and produce more. Isnt it so obvious? The Numbers Game.
Dont compare the present lot with some of the missionaries whose only motto was service and not conversion. Conversion is the aim and service incidental is the present motto in majority of the cases except those following in mother teresa`s footsteps. I had lauded her very early in the thread and u seem to be one who has pitched in the middle or u wouldnt have written as u did. Dont try to be a mother teresa and speak about worms in the same breath....
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : morningstar
Why are you bothered about 150 years from here on........the world may perish much before that due to its own idiocy!!!
Why dont you try going on a reconversion spree with your values and strengths and see for yourself??
Life is tough buddy in the tribal regions. It is easy to speak about scriptures, religion, vedas et al, but there is requirement of individuals who would really do the act!! One such example is Mthr Theresa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now don`t tell me that she was after conversion or one freak author wrote some articles or book against her. This is peanuts compared to the service she has granted to society.........you believe it or not!!
If you are in Mumbai try to get to a place called Shanti Avedna Ashram located near Shah Rukhs bungalow (Bandra) and see what service the nuns give to the underpriviliged and sick (CA patients) without consideration to caste, creed, or economical status????????
You are simply barking around with info from the net????
It is wonderful that you believe in an eye for an eye........please carry on propogate your mantra and this will augur well for the world and for India!!!!!!!
Why should the so called Christians convert uneducated and downtrodden, sick, unattended tribals????? Why are they so hungry for love and affection??? Now dont tell me it is for this and that!!!
Keep your paper faiths and values to yourself and get into the tribal areas of Kandmahal and see the problems for yourself. I assume from your views you are a paper worm???
Please do understand nobody from the Catholic Church is interested in conversions. Or else the population of catholics would have increased by leaps and bounds!!
Please please shun away the mistaken faith of forcible or even voluntary conversions of other faiths to Catholicism????
Catholics are not interested in conversions, but individuals like you want a reason for the macabre violence that has been unleashed in the country............this is not acceptable. Come out with some valid and proven reasons to prove your point.
As I told you I am not a staunch religion follower. I am an Indian first!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers!!
=morningstar=
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
Why are you bothered about 150 years from here on........the world may perish much before that due to its own idiocy!!!
Why dont you try going on a reconversion spree with your values and strengths and see for yourself??
Life is tough buddy in the tribal regions. It is easy to speak about scriptures, religion, vedas et al, but there is requirement of individuals who would really do the act!! One such example is Mthr Theresa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now don`t tell me that she was after conversion or one freak author wrote some articles or book against her. This is peanuts compared to the service she has granted to society.........you believe it or not!!
If you are in Mumbai try to get to a place called Shanti Avedna Ashram located near Shah Rukhs bungalow (Bandra) and see what service the nuns give to the underpriviliged and sick (CA patients) without consideration to caste, creed, or economical status????????
You are simply barking around with info from the net????
It is wonderful that you believe in an eye for an eye........please carry on propogate your mantra and this will augur well for the world and for India!!!!!!!
Why should the so called Christians convert uneducated and downtrodden, sick, unattended tribals????? Why are they so hungry for love and affection??? Now dont tell me it is for this and that!!!
Keep your paper faiths and values to yourself and get into the tribal areas of Kandmahal and see the problems for yourself. I assume from your views you are a paper worm???
Please do understand nobody from the Catholic Church is interested in conversions. Or else the population of catholics would have increased by leaps and bounds!!
Please please shun away the mistaken faith of forcible or even voluntary conversions of other faiths to Catholicism????
Catholics are not interested in conversions, but individuals like you want a reason for the macabre violence that has been unleashed in the country............this is not acceptable. Come out with some valid and proven reasons to prove your point.
As I told you I am not a staunch religion follower. I am an Indian first!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers!!
=morningstar=
...
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : pss5588
There may be many sites but what this says has been borne out in an interview in mint newspaper which i had reproduced quite some time back in this very thread. One of the dalit clergy even sought that vatican should give up conversion mania atleast for another 100 years and first set right the inhuman treatments being meted out to dalit christians by christian community itself.
Agreed they are better off than when they were several decades ago but not as much as claimed by u or others. They have still a long way to go whether as christians or as Mayawatis brothers and sisters. See how the criteria of income was raised for reservation. What was the purpose? Only to ensure that the well off dalits and backwards can carry on the suppression of their brethren by themselves henceforth instead of the upper castes earlier and to see that they continue to be servile as a vote bank by dangling carrots now and then without doing anything concrete at ground level. The same was done by the congress all these years to the muslims. Molly coddle the mullas and religious bigots(shah bano case), encourage the propogation of fundamentalist madrasas et al and use them as vote bank. Only bec the other regional parties played the same game this vote bank has been split resulting in congress losing their monopoly status.
By all means convert but subject to .......
As I say I have only an academic interest in this bec of my belief that it is just a matter of 150 odd years and Islam will be the predominant religion no matter whether u convert even the uppercastes among those known as Hindus,of whom i am also one, for this phenomenon is starkly evident in africa, europe and america and it is just a matter of time before most christians accept that jesus is the messenger of god and embrace islam.
As for conversion i have already stated umpteen times in this thread itself that i am not against it per se so long as it is fair and not by ulterior means and definitely not by denigrating other faiths gods. As far as gutless guests are concerned any denigration will be accordingly dealt with ... an eye for an eye.. and not the other cheek for they dont deserve nor understand such acts.
Tracked by: 0 Boarder
SP leader Amar Singh has suggested filing of a defamation suit against the Tata group chairman. Referring to Tata`s statement — "I hope there is a good M and a bad M...", Singh "requested" Samajwadi Party`s West Bengal state unit chief to file a defamation case against the former.Singh charged, adding "people in Singur were more interested in `atta` (flour) than Tata."
...
In reply to:
Singur interestd in `atta` (flour) than Tata.
Posted by :
selambannan
Decoupling days are coming ahead.........
Posted by : LalitdeshpandeyTracked by: 0 Boarder
googol,
I have never seen yor this form!!!!!!!!!
From where to start the journey is a basic problem with all of us.
Many ways to rcah to the water!!!!!, GNYANA,KARMA,BHAKTI AND YOGA, mainly 4 streams.. Bhagwan put Yogi inches ahead of all three....
You can choose the path which suits your basic character and not nature. nature is brain driven while Basic character is soul driven.
ASHTANGA YOGA JUST GIVE ONE CLUE, " SWAROOPENA TISTHATI"""
If some one tell it self realisation or ATMA SHAKSHATKAR Or any thing else dosen`t matter...
ARCHARYA RAJNISH asked every one to ask one self, "MAI KON HU "
he told to see moon, people catched finger!!!!!!
We shall have concern about what Geeta says, WHILE OUR MAJOR stress is to read geeta and feel done holly work!!!!!!!
It is endless .........
Truth lies not in words but in experience. Once words come into picture, truth vanishes.... because, ANUBHUTI -Experience can never be shared in toto.. What one experience, can never be shared to any one else, or described in perfect way. It just can show the path...
We had got god lot of path finders in the history, but people followed them and mised the path!!!!!!!!!!!!
AUM SHATI SHANTi SHANTI.......
I am zero in this subject..........
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
This is not the first time that Mr Ghai and his inter-faith group, the Anglo Asian Friendship Society, has traded blows with the authorities in Newcastle. in 2006, the body of Rajpal Mehat, a 31-year-old illegal immigrant, was found in a canal outside Slough in west London. There was very little to identify the man other than a mobile phone with Mr Ghai`s number in it. With his help police were able to identify the man and handed the body over to his family in India, who had been flown to the UK by the society. Unable to afford the costs of transporting the body to India, Mr Ghai decided to hold the first open-air cremation in more than 70 years on a secret location in Northumberland. "The only people left were his mother and daughter," he said. "They were deeply worried about the condition of his soul. So with the help of local Sikhs and Hindus we burned him outdoors."
Having initially given a go-ahead to the rite police ended up investigating the cremation and passed a file to the CPS; the case was dropped because it was not in the public interest.
Andrew Singh Dogan, a former barrister who acts as legal co-ordinator for the society, believes Mr Ghai`s fight mirrors that of William Price, a Welshman who successfully campaigned for the legalisation of cremations at the end of the 19th century.
"it took a while for Britain to accept the idea of cremations but nowadays we live in a society where more people are cremated than buried," he said. "I think once people understand what really happens during an open-air cremation they`ll realise there is nothing to fear. We will come to accept them just like we learnt to accept normal cremations. it`s not like we want to put some pyre on the banks of the Tyne, we`d find a space that is wholly private and away from public eyes where people who want to grieve next to the body of their loved ones can do so."
Other supporters believe resistance to the open-air cremations is purely conceptual. "in the Abrahamic faiths fire is something you associate with hell," said Dr Anand, one of Mr Ghai`s followers who recently lost his son and was deeply upset about having to cremate his body in a crematorium. "[Fire] is seen as a punishment and I think that`s why many Westerners prefer not to see the actual cremation. But for us fire is something pure, it cleanses and renews. There is hardly a single Hindu ceremony that doesn`t at some point use agni [sacred fire], which acts as a conduit between man and God."
One of the difficulties Mr Ghai`s followers face is resistance from leaders within their own community. Sikh and Hindu faith groups have been reluctant to show their support for his legal battle. The Hindu Academy has called open-air cremations an "antiquated practice" whilst the Hindu Council has also said that it does not support outdoor pyres. Only the Hindu Forum of Britain has made statements in support of the idea. its secretary general, Ramesh Kallidai, said: "Those who wish to exercise this choice of open-air funeral pyres in order to feel that they have done their religious obligation for their parents should be allowed, provided two conditions are fulfilled: that it does not break any law in this country and that it does not endanger anybody else in the vicinity in terms of health and safety."
Mr Ghai said that enough Hindus and Sikhs in Britain believe that open-air cremations are a vital part of their religion. "I believe a person should be able to live according to their religious beliefs and that we should accommodate that as long as it does not harm others," he said. "I cannot see how open air cremations in a private place away from the public gaze could harm anyone."
...
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : sambala
The burning issue of HINDU funeral pyres
Open-air funeral pyres have been at the heart of Hinduism for 4,000 years. Now a spiritual healer from Newcastle is battling at the High Court to lift the ban on outdoor cremations in Britain. Jerome Taylor reports
Tuesday, 14 October 2008
The single-storey council house in Gosforth, a suburb of Newcastle upon Tyne, looks just like any other prefab in the quiet cul-de-sac. Only when Davender Kumar Ghai`s door bell is pressed and Sanskrit chants echo through the house are visitors made aware that this is not just a home, it is a living, breathing temple.
The 69-year-old Hindu spiritual healer has remained little known outside his band of devoted Hindu and Sikh followers. But should Mr Ghai`s court action prove successful he may soon be acknowledged as the man responsible for the biggest shake-up of Britain`s cremations laws in more than a century.
Mr Ghai, who was born in Uganda, will travel to the High Court next month to try to challenge a decision by Newcastle City Council denying him the right to an open-air cremation when he dies. His lawyers will argue that outdoor cremations fall outside of the 1902 Cremation Act, which regulates what goes on inside a crematorium but does not explicitly forbid outdoor burnings.
Speaking exclusively to The independent Mr Ghai, dressed in simple woollens and sitting on a throne of sculpted skulls, explained why he felt legal action is necessary. "The Hindus of Britain have never asked for anything," he said, running his hands through a thick, white beard. "But we`re not asking for much, just to cremate our loved ones in the way our religion says it must be done."
In South Asia the vast majority of cremations for Hindus and Sikhs are held outdoors, often on the banks of a river that has been deemed holy. Although widely practised in the Sikh faith, outdoor cremations are not considered compulsory.
In Hinduism, however, there is more widespread agreement that the 4,000-year-old practice of open-air burning is the most spiritually appropriate way to release a soul from the body following death. Many Hindus believe that mechanical cremations lead to akal mrtyu (a bad death), where the soul is forced to mingle with other souls because it has not been able to escape.
"Open-air cremations are our birth right and our religious right," explained Mr Ghai. "The soul has to be released from the skull and allowed to go straight up into the air. Muslims and Jews have been given their own graveyards, they have been allowed to deal with their dead according to their religious needs but Hindus have been ignored." His lawyers will cite a number of precedents where outdoor cremations were either held with the support of the state or went ahead and were not prosecuted.
On a hillside outside Brighton a marble memorial stands on a spot where 53 Hindu and Sikh soldiers who died fighting in the First World War were cremated outdoors. in 1934, the Home Office helped to organise the cremation in Woking of Shumshere Jung, a member of Nepal`s royal family and wife of the Nepalese ambassador at the time. Mr Ghai`s lawyers believe these examples will help show the courts that a precedent exists for open-air cremations.
Should he prove successful, many of Britain`s estimated one million Hindus and Sikhs would probably opt for an outdoor ceremony rather than a closed one, radically changing the way cremations are carried out in Britain.
Mr Ghai`s first victory came in April last year, when Justice Collins granted him permission to seek judicial review over Newcastle City Council`s refusal because the issue was of "considerable importance" to Hindus and because he believed there was a chance that the burning of dead bodies in the open air was "not necessarily unlawful".
CONT.....
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
The burning issue of HINDU funeral pyres
Open-air funeral pyres have been at the heart of Hinduism for 4,000 years. Now a spiritual healer from Newcastle is battling at the High Court to lift the ban on outdoor cremations in Britain. Jerome Taylor reports
Tuesday, 14 October 2008
The single-storey council house in Gosforth, a suburb of Newcastle upon Tyne, looks just like any other prefab in the quiet cul-de-sac. Only when Davender Kumar Ghai`s door bell is pressed and Sanskrit chants echo through the house are visitors made aware that this is not just a home, it is a living, breathing temple.
The 69-year-old Hindu spiritual healer has remained little known outside his band of devoted Hindu and Sikh followers. But should Mr Ghai`s court action prove successful he may soon be acknowledged as the man responsible for the biggest shake-up of Britain`s cremations laws in more than a century.
Mr Ghai, who was born in Uganda, will travel to the High Court next month to try to challenge a decision by Newcastle City Council denying him the right to an open-air cremation when he dies. His lawyers will argue that outdoor cremations fall outside of the 1902 Cremation Act, which regulates what goes on inside a crematorium but does not explicitly forbid outdoor burnings.
Speaking exclusively to The independent Mr Ghai, dressed in simple woollens and sitting on a throne of sculpted skulls, explained why he felt legal action is necessary. "The Hindus of Britain have never asked for anything," he said, running his hands through a thick, white beard. "But we`re not asking for much, just to cremate our loved ones in the way our religion says it must be done."
In South Asia the vast majority of cremations for Hindus and Sikhs are held outdoors, often on the banks of a river that has been deemed holy. Although widely practised in the Sikh faith, outdoor cremations are not considered compulsory.
In Hinduism, however, there is more widespread agreement that the 4,000-year-old practice of open-air burning is the most spiritually appropriate way to release a soul from the body following death. Many Hindus believe that mechanical cremations lead to akal mrtyu (a bad death), where the soul is forced to mingle with other souls because it has not been able to escape.
"Open-air cremations are our birth right and our religious right," explained Mr Ghai. "The soul has to be released from the skull and allowed to go straight up into the air. Muslims and Jews have been given their own graveyards, they have been allowed to deal with their dead according to their religious needs but Hindus have been ignored." His lawyers will cite a number of precedents where outdoor cremations were either held with the support of the state or went ahead and were not prosecuted.
On a hillside outside Brighton a marble memorial stands on a spot where 53 Hindu and Sikh soldiers who died fighting in the First World War were cremated outdoors. in 1934, the Home Office helped to organise the cremation in Woking of Shumshere Jung, a member of Nepal`s royal family and wife of the Nepalese ambassador at the time. Mr Ghai`s lawyers believe these examples will help show the courts that a precedent exists for open-air cremations.
Should he prove successful, many of Britain`s estimated one million Hindus and Sikhs would probably opt for an outdoor ceremony rather than a closed one, radically changing the way cremations are carried out in Britain.
Mr Ghai`s first victory came in April last year, when Justice Collins granted him permission to seek judicial review over Newcastle City Council`s refusal because the issue was of "considerable importance" to Hindus and because he believed there was a chance that the burning of dead bodies in the open air was "not necessarily unlawful".
CONT........
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : sambala
Mysore Dasara
Dasara is the Nadahabba (state-festival) of the state of Karnataka. It is also called as Navaratri (Nava-ratri = nine-nights) and is a 10-day festival with the last day being Vijayadashami, the most auspicious day of Dasara. Dasara usually falls in the month of September or October. According to a legend, Vijayadashami denotes the victory of truth over evil and was the day when the Hindu Goddess Chamundeshwari killed the demon Mahishasura. Mahishasura is the demon from whose name; the name Mysore has been derived. The city of Mysore has a long tradition of celebrating the Dasara festival and the festivities here are an elaborate affair and attract a large audience including foreigners
Festivities
The Dasara festivities were first started by the Vijayanagar Kings in 15th Century, after the fall of Vijayanagar Kingdom, The Wodeyar`s of Mysore continued the Dasara Festival by, Raja Wodeyar I (1578-1617 CE) in the year 1610[1]. The Mysore Palace is lit up on all the 10 days of Dasara. The festivities begin with the Wodeyar royal couple performing a special puja to Goddess Chamundeshwari in the Chamundi Temple located on the top of Chamundi Hill at Mysore. This would be followed by a special durbar (royal assembly). It was during the reign of Krishnaraja Wodeyar III in the year 1805, when the king started the tradition of having a special durbar in the Mysore Palace during Dasara; which was attended by members of the royal family, special invitees, officials and the masses. This tradition has been continued even now with the current scion of the Wodeyar family, Srikantadatta Narasimharaja Wodeyar holding a private durbar during Dasara. The ninth day of Dasara called as Mahanavami is also an auspicious day on which the royal sword is worshipped and is taken on a procession involving elephants, camels and horses.
Procession
On Vijayadashami, the traditional Dasara procession (locally known as Jumboo Savari) is held on the streets of Mysore city. The main attraction of this procession is the idol of the Goddess Chamundeshwari which is placed on a golden mantapa on the top of a decorated elephant. This idol is worshipped by the royal couple and other invitees before it is taken around in the procession. Colourful tableaux, dance groups, music bands, decorated elephants, horses and camels form a part of the procession which starts from the Mysore Palace and culminates at a place called Bannimantap where the banni tree (Prosopis spicigera) is worshipped. According to a legend of the Mahabharata, banni tree was used by the Pandavas to hide their arms during their one-year period of Agnatavasa (living life incognito). Before undertaking any warfare, the kings traditionally worshipped this tree to help them emerge victorious in the war. The Dasara festivities would culminate on the night of Vijayadashami with an event held in the grounds at Bannimantap called as Panjina Kavayatthu (torch-light parade).
*****HAPPY VIJAYADASAMI TO ALL OF YOU AND YOUR FAMILY*****
Decoupling days are coming ahead.........
Posted by : AtheistTracked by: 0 Boarder
Sir,
What i have discussed are not habits, THEY ARE THE RULES THAT A HINDU OR A MUSLIM IS ,,SUPPOSED,, TO LIVE BY, they are a way of life, life as sanctioned by the religions. Its an other issue that one may not be following the rules.
And sir, as someone put it, its the journey(step by step)that matters and not the success that you set out to achieve.
And sir, I guess Chardin was detached from reality as are most of us....
Sir, I know the argument is endless, I understood the day i replied to one of your messages and you did not revert back, that you had come to the conclusion that the argument has no conclusion...
Great to read your views sir.
your views always have a mature ring to them. :)
...Singh... ...
Decoupling days are coming ahead.........
Posted by : AtheistTracked by: 0 Boarder
Sir,
It can be done COLLECTIVELY......Not by ONE!
Sir, Gandhi ji also did not do what he did, alone, there were lakhs who followed him and supported him.
And sir, Gandhi ji may not have gained materially, but THINK OF THE FREEDOM HE GAVE US!!!
If Gandhi ji had thought on the same lines of selfishness(pardon me),
we would not be breathing in a free country today.
I know that India is plagued by numerous ills, but you dont leave a dying relative on the street alone, just because you have your own ends to acheive....:)
...Singh... ...
Tracked by: 6 Boarders
There may be many sites but what this says has been borne out in an interview in mint newspaper which i had reproduced quite some time back in this very thread. One of the dalit clergy even sought that vatican should give up conversion mania atleast for another 100 years and first set right the inhuman treatments being meted out to dalit christians by christian community itself.
Agreed they are better off than when they were several decades ago but not as much as claimed by u or others. They have still a long way to go whether as christians or as Mayawatis brothers and sisters. See how the criteria of income was raised for reservation. What was the purpose? Only to ensure that the well off dalits and backwards can carry on the suppression of their brethren by themselves henceforth instead of the upper castes earlier and to see that they continue to be servile as a vote bank by dangling carrots now and then without doing anything concrete at ground level. The same was done by the congress all these years to the muslims. Molly coddle the mullas and religious bigots(shah bano case), encourage the propogation of fundamentalist madrasas et al and use them as vote bank. Only bec the other regional parties played the same game this vote bank has been split resulting in congress losing their monopoly status.
By all means convert but subject to .......
As I say I have only an academic interest in this bec of my belief that it is just a matter of 150 odd years and Islam will be the predominant religion no matter whether u convert even the uppercastes among those known as Hindus,of whom i am also one, for this phenomenon is starkly evident in africa, europe and america and it is just a matter of time before most christians accept that jesus is the messenger of god and embrace islam.
As for conversion i have already stated umpteen times in this thread itself that i am not against it per se so long as it is fair and not by ulterior means and definitely not by denigrating other faiths gods. As far as gutless guests are concerned any denigration will be accordingly dealt with ... an eye for an eye.. and not the other cheek for they dont deserve nor understand such acts....
In reply to:
Catholics, Karnataka and BJP
Posted by : morningstar
Please if possible find and tell us. Such editors are avaialble dime a dozen if you have crisp notes to throw!!
Cheers!!
